Valyrian Steel?

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Valyrian Steel?

PostPosted by Soulbourne » Sun Jun 26, 2016 04:38

So, if valyrian steel is based on damascus steel with added magic, does this mean that it is in theory possible to make more valyrian steel with rediscover of the spells-potentially even without dragon fire?

To explain: Damascus steel used an ancient form of steel known as Wootz made in india even during the time of alexander the great. This was an extremely rare and sought after material forged by a process that was lost to us relatively recently that provided extreme strength through it's forging process of basic iron above and beyond later steels until much more recently. Damascus steel was a refined forging process using this materials originating among the smiths of damascus, and spreading out from there as masters migrated, but limited by the actual component of Wootz steel. It can be believed that both materials were limited in forging by the heat of the forge, with later forges and smelters being much hotter as more intricate processes were discovered to increase and manage heat.

This leads me back to the main point: In an antiquated society like the valyrian freehold, using dragonfire alongside magic would allow forges and smelters above and beyond any traditional ones they had at the time. They could get hotter and have more precise control over the flames. More recent advancements could very well render this part of the process useless, as forging and smelting technology alongside the skills of masters have rendered that useless. If this were true, then only the spells woven into the blade to properly imbue the materials with the magic of blood and fire or whatever is the missing component in the modern day, which may very well be able to be rediscovered either through archeological and scholarly research or simple trial and error by a well funded host of magicians and master smiths.

As for the point of this post: Does anyone have any thoughts or reasons to debunk this line of thought, or could this actually be a possible avenue?

Also: Wootz steel always amuses me as a name.
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Re: Valyrian Steel?

PostPosted by LancelotLoire » Sun Jun 26, 2016 07:41

Here are a few possible ideas...

Method 1: What if the dragon flames themselves house a magical aspect to it, and that form of magic is entirely unique to dragons. Much like how certain plants were burned for the furnaces to form nano-fibers in the steel that worked to strengthen the metal.

Method 2: What if the dragon flames aren't the process used to melt the metal.. but the metal itself. The flames are cooled through the use of blood magic by the valyrian mages and is then forged into the steel.

Method 3: What if the metal is somehow changed on an atomic level by being ate by the dragons. The dragons are fed the ore which is then changed inside the dragon which is then regurgitated in it's molten state and forged via magical methods.

Each of those 3 methods I mentioned are slightly tweaked to fit better within the AGOT lore but exist in other fictional universes.

Method 1: Wheel of Time forging of power wrought weapons. In that series magic is utilized by the weaving of magical threads (fire, water, earth, air, spirit). The threads are wrapped around and worked into the metal while it is being hammered and worked. These weapons were extremely durable, retained the sharpness of their blades and were near impossible to break.

Method 2: I can't think of where I got the idea from this one. But it definitely came from something.

Method 3: How to train your Dragon. There was an episode where they create Gronkel metal by the one dragon eating it the ore and later regurgitating it. This metal was incredibly light and incredibly durable.

Anyways those 3 things are entirely plausible solutions for how dragons are actually used in the production of Valyrian Steel. It could also just be that dragon flames burn hotter than any possible forge could ever achieve.
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Re: Valyrian Steel?

PostPosted by GoogleSearch » Sun Jun 26, 2016 12:32

Personally I believe it is more likely to be like the Wheel of Time or even the Inheritance cycle. This would involve layering magic throughout the steel. No dragonfire. The only problem with this theory would be that it should be simple enough to melt down the steel and rework it but only few people can do so unless the magic must be awakened or moved some how in the forging
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Re: Valyrian Steel?

PostPosted by LancelotLoire » Sun Jun 26, 2016 23:55

I am definitely thinking that there is some magical quality to the dragon flames themselves and that they are an essential part of the construction of the steel. This would explain how the technique of actual construction of the blades remained only in Valyria but the art of reworking the metal could have left.
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Re: Valyrian Steel?

PostPosted by SinStar87 » Mon Jun 27, 2016 00:01

But if it was about dragons, why couldn't the Targs create more? I'm sure Aegon would have loved to have valyrian steel equipped soldiers in the conquest, more so in Dorne.

If dragons were involved, I think it'd just be for fun, why use a furnace when you have living fire around.
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Re: Valyrian Steel?

PostPosted by LancelotLoire » Mon Jun 27, 2016 01:11

I never said that at all sin. Here is a bit more in-depth of the process of how I think it is done.

+Metal ores from the Fourteen Flames are brought together, from each of the different mountains an equal quantities.
+The dragons flame is used to melt the ore and burn off any imperfections and fuse the mix together. There is also an added magical element in the dragons flame that binds with the ore.
+196 slaves are ritually sacrificed and the blood of them all used by fourteen powerful Valyrian mage to strengthen his powers to channel magical bindings into the metal. (This process lasts the entire rest of the process)
+The blacksmith begins forging the blade, with the dragon heating the blade to provide the needed malleability. As well as further strengthening the metal through it's magical imbued flames.
+The object is cooled in the blood of slaves.

SO in all you'd need the following..
At least 1 Dragon - There could easily be multiple dragons. Acting as the smelter and the forge itself. As well as changing the metal at an atomic level with it's magically imbued flames.
At least 1 Blacksmith - Could also easily be multiple Blacksmiths working.
Ore from each of the Fourteen Flames - Each of the Fourteen Flames were heavily mined throughout the history of Valyria. These Volcanoes were extremely central to Valyrian culture. So it would only make sense that if they were to be creating something in such a ceremonial way that they would use metals found from each of the volcanoes. It is also possible that the volcanoes have somehow changed the ore itself in a way, and that the changes to each of the ore combine together.
14 Mages - All 14 Mages must be of high magical talent and strength. 1 Mage for each of the Fourteen Flames.
196 Slaves - 196 is the square of 14. 14 slaves for each of the mages.

The reforging of the metal at a later date would require far less people and only would need the mage to sort of unwind the bindings a little bit to allow reworking and then rebinding. However this would also weaken the metal albeit not significantly enough to ruin it.

This would make it so that the production of Valyrian steel wasn't just any old process, but a ceremonial task which would require heavy resources and take time (several days even). There is even the possibility that depending on what was being made you could use less people or more. So for instance, a valyrian bastard(2-handed) sword requires 14 mages and 196 slaves.. A 1-handed sword could possibly only need 13 mages and 182 slaves. It could also be that they are able to forge multiple things at the same time, and that they would have a blacksmith for each task as well as a dragon for each task. So that they aren't just forging like 1 sword at a time, but they are forging like 4 daggers, 2 swords, a 2-handed sword, a spear blade, a full suit of armor and 20 feet worth of chain at once. Or maybe the mage number is a constant and doesn't require to be changed at all, with the 14 being symbolic and that they are able to bind as small or as large of a project as needed.
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Re: Valyrian Steel?

PostPosted by SinStar87 » Mon Jun 27, 2016 01:43

Well you did in Method 1 above, so was arguing against that and touched on 3 and the previous post with my opinion in the second sentence. I honestly just don't want dragons to have any meaningful impact in the production because the Iron Throne, forged with dragon fire, isn't magical or anything.
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Re: Valyrian Steel?

PostPosted by LancelotLoire » Mon Jun 27, 2016 02:25

Sin... What I just described IS method 1. The only known fact we have for sure about the forging of Valyrian steel is that mages were involved in the creation of it casting spells on the metal itself, so there was no need to mention it at all except the second method which was a unique circumstance. Also a dragon is a magical creature, so it isn't that big of a leap to figure that their flames also have a magical property to them.

Anyways, the original purpose of this thread was to give any thoughts or reasons for debunking. And all 3 methods I mentioned are entirely plausible methods for how Valyrian steel was produced.

EDIT: Ah just caught the iron throne comment. Well the Iron Throne was only forged from steel swords melted together by dragonfire, which means that there was only the dragon aspect involved, not the valyrian mages. As for magical qualities... Well it is rumored to cut unworthy rulers sitting upon it like Aerys the Mad. Who is to say it doesn't have a magical quality to it?
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Re: Valyrian Steel?

PostPosted by SinStar87 » Mon Jun 27, 2016 02:51

Sorry only briefly read over the posts, didn't realize your methods were specifically how dragons would be involved with a greater formula. so assumed methods = how valyrian steel was made by dragons against OP's dragon fire isn't required. (easy to miss things like that :) )

Still magic fire bugs me because the Throne, *Redacted, seems that rumors not in the books.* Anyway I don't count rumors of sentient metal, if dragon fire were magic then any metal worked with it should have some properties, to a lesser extent, of valyrian steel. Which, as far as I can find, no metals from Balerion's burnings have been mentioned to.

I like your second method though, but when I was looking into Valyrian steel, westeros.org had interviews with GRRM and my inference of it is that they start with regular steel and use magic to make it valyrian steel.
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Re: Valyrian Steel?

PostPosted by Soulbourne » Mon Jun 27, 2016 03:14

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1225

This seems to indicate it is using magically enhanced steel as it's base, though it's a bit vague on the details. However, what intrigued me was the mention of damascus steel, which was limited in production primarily by technology more than anything near as we can tell, both the knowledge to produce wootz as I said alongside stronger forges in later eras refining it into damascus.

However, I acknowledge that dragonfire may play a part-I was just wondering if anyone maybe had some confirmation that dragonfire was a key ingredient or if perhaps it was just a workaround for tech levels of the freehold. Spells and the like would still be needed either way, but wasn't sure if dragonfire perhaps wasn't a key regent in those spells.
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Re: Valyrian Steel?

PostPosted by LancelotLoire » Mon Jun 27, 2016 04:09

Figured it was something like that :p

In Ancient times there was a ruler named Macumber, who from his tower could look out with his blue eyes and see all the lands he ruled.
Long after his death people would remember a tower of a man with blue eyes who ruled all land within his eye.
Long after their deaths, people would remember a blue eyed giant that sees all land.
Long after their deaths, people would remember that the world is in the eye of a blue eyed giant. And that is the reason the sky is blue.

Anyways Macumber is a fictional creation for the tv show so doesn't really matter to me haha. Anyways yes the throne is a funny bit of a rumor, that I mostly brought up as a joke lol. Magical creatures, I tend to find are tied to their natural element in a magical way. Others with Ice, Dragons with Fire, Children with Earth. Which would mean that their elements are magically infused in some kind of way. As for the things that Balerion burned not having magical or special properties.. They were only exposed for a brief moment to the direct flames, where as the forging process probably involved multiple long period exposure to dragon fire as well as the workings of mages using whatever type of magics they used (Which most likely involved a lot of blood magic and sacrifice). So it likely experienced such a minor change as to not even be noticeable at all. For example, if you put a glass of water in the freezer for 10 minutes as opposed to putting a glass of water in the freezer for 10 hours. The water after 10 minutes might be a little colder, but after 10 hours you'd most likely have a solid chunk of ice.

There is also the other thing I mentioned in that detailed bit where it's possible they used a mixture of different ores from the various mines underneath the fourteen flames. Where the metal comes from may also have a slight difference on how the flames change the metal. The metal in Westeros that is used could be of a much lower quality than the metal that was mined from Valyria.

I did like that second method as well. But I figured a bit that it wasn't likely the way unfortunately. Still can't remember where I had heard of that type of thing before.
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Re: Valyrian Steel?

PostPosted by SinStar87 » Mon Jun 27, 2016 04:43

Yeah, I understand, and not really arguing against it. You covered issues I have with the magic fire. Doesn't mean I have to like it "Inferior metal?? But it's magic!" :)
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Re: Valyrian Steel?

PostPosted by GoogleSearch » Mon Jun 27, 2016 20:03

Dragonfire would be far too hard to control, The forging of a blade of such magnitude would take hours. I do not believe any dragon (Even Balerion) could maintain a steady flame at the correct temperature for that long. Magic is a far more likely answer.
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Re: Valyrian Steel?

PostPosted by LancelotLoire » Mon Jun 27, 2016 22:24

Google lol, need a quick instruction on how weapons or any metal items are forged.

The forge is raised to a very hot temperature, the metal object is then inserted into the forge until the metal is glowing red. The metal is then removed from the source of heat entirely and placed on an anvil and hammering begins to shape it into what is being made. If the metal begins to cool off, the hammering stops shaping it and so it is returned to the heat source until it has been returned to red hotness and the process is continued. This takes multiple hours of intensive work.

A dragon would never need to maintain a steady flame for any real period of time. Just a quick 3 seconds of flame every once in awhile to keep the metal malleable to shape change. And the temperature itself wouldn't matter at all. If the dragons flames are too hot, then the shorter the breath of fire would actually need to be.

There is absolutely no "correct temperature" involved.
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Re: Valyrian Steel?

PostPosted by Soulbourne » Mon Jun 27, 2016 23:03

Actually, there is a correct temperature. The forge needs heated properly for the smith to achieve the desired temperature, and this actually can affect the shifts in the metals chemical structure. That said, dragonfire would definitively exceed their forging techniques and allow closer to crucible steel or the like to be achieved with a base most likely since it wasn't until nearly the viking age that evidence of hot enough forges and smelters to create crucible steel quality was found in archeology-and some people dispute these findings anyways.

That said, dragonfire does possess magical qualities, I believe we all agree on that, and magic of blood and fire was kinda the specialty of the valyrians. So manipulating dragonfire to create proper temperatures with magic is hardly an issue, and the next part would fall to the skill of the smith. Otherwise, yes it's just at most a minute at a time to heat up the metal if you have a good forge. And the dragon can rest for minutes at a time between. Combine that with dragons being mass produced like cheap daggers and you guarentee even if only using younger beasts a steady supply of mobile forges.
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Re: Valyrian Steel?

PostPosted by GoogleSearch » Wed Jun 29, 2016 21:50

LancelotLoire wrote:Google lol, need a quick instruction on how weapons or any metal items are forged.

The forge is raised to a very hot temperature, the metal object is then inserted into the forge until the metal is glowing red. The metal is then removed from the source of heat entirely and placed on an anvil and hammering begins to shape it into what is being made. If the metal begins to cool off, the hammering stops shaping it and so it is returned to the heat source until it has been returned to red hotness and the process is continued. This takes multiple hours of intensive work.

A dragon would never need to maintain a steady flame for any real period of time. Just a quick 3 seconds of flame every once in awhile to keep the metal malleable to shape change. And the temperature itself wouldn't matter at all. If the dragons flames are too hot, then the shorter the breath of fire would actually need to be.

There is absolutely no "correct temperature" involved.


I am pretty sure there is. If dragon flame is not involved in the tempering of the blade then there would be little chance for the magical properties of the flame to sink in. That would be an ideal time for blade to be constantly under the effect of the flame. That is why I consider dragon fire ineffective for making a blade as the blade has to be kept at a constant temperature. It is also stated that different dragons have different strength of flame (Which would mean on the largest dragon could heat steal to a workable level), If we were to assume all Dragons were as strong as Balerion they could turn the metal to liquid. The point being that it would make far more sense for the dragons to be used in the smelting of the metal rather than the forging of the blade.
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