Who has the most skilled army

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Re: Who has the most skilled army

PostPosted by SinStar87 » Thu Jul 21, 2016 23:10

Yes. Language, by it's natural need to be understood, should be as simple as possible while maintaining it's meaning.
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Re: Who has the most skilled army

PostPosted by cyanidebaby » Wed Sep 21, 2016 14:27

Qyburn :p
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Re: Who has the most skilled army

PostPosted by armychowmein » Thu Sep 22, 2016 19:12

SinStar87 wrote:None of your points mean anything then, since it's all luck of the draw. Distance/difficulty don't matter because they were just lucky to get all the calculations correct, kills don't because they were just lucky to stumble on to enemies. Any position you take can easily be dismissed as "they got/could get lucky" and you've, basically, wasted yours and every one else's time by being in the discussion. So thanks, I guess?



Sin man, that, I'm sorry to say, is unfortunately wrong. A sniper spends more time on the range than anyone else. Why? Because he needs to know exactly how every projectile will react given different conditions. Everything gets recorded into what's referred to as a Dope book. Mine's around 1400 pages and I really need to digitize it. Before we would deploy to various regions, I'd spend months out on the KD range with multiple SWS's doing my homework. For example, I know that the M24 I deployed with to Afghanistan had a 699 round count through the barrel. This meant that I was limited to shots less than about 680m with that SWS. However, the barrel of my 300 winnie had 177 rounds through it at the time we deployed, meaning I was still good for another 800+ rounds at distances between 1.5K to 2.2K, but I was only good for about 300+ rounds beyond that distance (given the load of the round used for shots taken longer than 1.3 miles). On the range, I know (given the load and the SWS and the glass) I'm good out to about 1.9 miles. But I've never taken a shot out of anger that was further than 600 meters (which was about 150 meters hilariously outside the effective range of my M4). A true "Sniper" is never really ever known because the primary role of sniper on the battlefield is observation and intelligence collection.
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Re: Who has the most skilled army

PostPosted by SinStar87 » Thu Sep 22, 2016 19:14

armychowmein wrote:...

How's it wrong then? It's a chide against Lancelot for dismissing sniper's ability to put a bullet on a target as luck rather than skill.
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Re: Who has the most skilled army

PostPosted by armychowmein » Thu Sep 22, 2016 19:15

SinStar87 wrote:How's it wrong then? It's a chide against Lancelot for dismissing sniper's ability to put a bullet on a target as luck rather than skill.


I apologize. I am way to stoned and didn't fully follow the flow of the thread. I'm sorry.
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Re: Who has the most skilled army

PostPosted by armychowmein » Thu Sep 22, 2016 19:39

Going back to the main point of this post, what about unsullied? I get that they'd probably not be very good at improv like the Ironborn or Northerners, but what they lack there they certainly make up for in dedication and steadfastness.
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Re: Who has the most skilled army

PostPosted by azaghal » Fri Sep 23, 2016 22:03

Well, if we look outside of Westeros, it propably would be the golden company.

They lack in size, but by fully embracing a versatile army with the parts supporting eachother they do something the "knight+levy" armies in Westeros can't even comprehend.

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Re: Who has the most skilled army

PostPosted by armychowmein » Fri Sep 23, 2016 23:40

azaghal wrote:Well, if we look outside of Westeros, it propably would be the golden company.

They lack in size, but by fully embracing a versatile army with the parts supporting eachother they do something the "knight+levy" armies in Westeros can't even comprehend.

Greetings



Oh duh, of course the Golden Company. I can't believe I forgot! And they're always fighting so they're constantly battle tested.
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Re: Who has the most skilled army

PostPosted by yg0r » Wed May 03, 2017 17:59

The Unsullied and the Golden Company should be counted. They have experience, good training. The GC though have more of an army, in terms of composition, so i guess they beat the unsullied (who i would imagine have the more skilled individual soldier). Some of you were quick to dismiss the Reach and Westerlands armies when i do think they are the most skilled army exactly because of wealth. The more "richer" the army, more knights they have. And knights are a powerful warrior caste, en paire with samurai and other people who lived for war, contrary to what most media says. In neutral grounds, with neutral commands, i think the Reach would be the stronger army just for the proportion of knights and "knightly" culture they have. (That's my guess, i'm no lord of the truth haha)
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Re: Who has the most skilled army

PostPosted by LancelotLoire » Thu May 04, 2017 10:45

army in Westeros has the most skilled soldiers

That's why Golden Company isn't included lol. The Unsullied also weren't counted in this because they aren't from Westeros.. and also because they just plain suck in general. Their style of training is actually a huge negative mark for the skill as an army. Also the lack of fear of dying. A wounded tiger will fight even harder because it fears death.
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Re: Who has the most skilled army

PostPosted by k0rppi » Fri May 05, 2017 14:06

LancelotLoire wrote:...The Unsullied also weren't counted in this because they aren't from Westeros.. and also because they just plain suck in general. Their style of training is actually a huge negative mark for the skill as an army. Also the lack of fear of dying. A wounded tiger will fight even harder because it fears death.


What do you mean when you say their training is a negative thing? They've been trained for multiple types of combat all their lives and conditioned to withstand war and bloodshed both physically and mentally. When talking about fighting skill, I'd say they're pretty high on the list.
Your tiger analogy also doesn't work. Sure, it fights more fiercely but it still just wants to run away and survive. It's a panic reaction and in most cases people (and probably tigers, too) make better decisions when they're calm and content, not when they're afraid and in panic. If there really was an army without fear and free will, it'd be pretty formidable.
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Re: Who has the most skilled army

PostPosted by armychowmein » Sat May 06, 2017 17:58

I've forgotten, which time period in Westeros are we debating the skills of armies? I just wonder if we consider whether or not lesser lords are loyal enough to dedicate their worthwhile troops? For example, if we were referring to the entire age after Aegon's conquest (minus dragons as that's not a "skill" an army can develop), how skilled were Bloodraven's archers? Or, what about Robert's army at the Trident (who, though outnumbered, were seasoned veterans led by seasoned, and ambitious, commanders)? Do fleets count as well? If so, what about Corlys the Sea Snake and his fleet coupled with Daemon's army?
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Re: Who has the most skilled army

PostPosted by LancelotLoire » Sun May 07, 2017 13:26

"Man to man, the Unsullied are no better or worse than any other spearmen. It's their discipline that makes them dangerous, but if they cannot form up into a spear wall ...[19]" Tyrion Lannister (snippet from winds of winter)

The slaver bay cities are broken and decrepit basically. The Unsullied are a pale comparison to the lockstep legions of old Ghiscar. The old masters aren't training them to be experts in combat, or to be any of that. They are beating them into clay and molding them into a very specific thing. Adaptability, Creativity, Passions, Fears or any of that? Counter-intuitive to the product they are selling. Their training isn't a training but is a full blown programming that has been hardwired in. An army without fear is an army without bravery, an army without heroism.

There have been only a small sample of battles to look at for the Unsullied. Three Thousand of Qohor, Battle near Yunkai, Siege of Meereen (The last 2 don't really work as indicators)

Three Thousand of Qohor: 3000 Unsullied (2400 died) fighting 20000 Dothraki (12000 died).
Dothraki are unarmored cavalry with curved swords.
Unsullied are lightly armored foot with shields and spears.
Unsullied fight typically in a phalanx formation.

The Dothraki strategy in this battle was to launch direct frontal assaults again and again. They launched 18 charges and 3 attacks with archers. That's pretty much the absolute worst kind of way to attack. Basically the Unsullied are a meat grinder and the Dothraki were just shoving meat and meat into it with the hopes a bone fragment would jam into it and stop the grinder.

The other 2 as I said aren't very good indicators because in the case of Yunkai there were dragons, a betrayal by a mercenary group under yunkai, and about 4k city guards of Yunkai (IE: Not really combat trained to fight a battle). And in the siege of Meereen it wasn't a battle at all and more like a distraction to let a small number break in and free slaves to start a slave revolt..

So yeah the only battle experience we have for the Unsullied is a battle against basically unarmored light cavalry with no thought process in battle plan against a unit that is basically anti-cavalry.
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Re: Who has the most skilled army

PostPosted by uwa12 » Thu Jun 22, 2017 08:27

This topic is exactly what I was looking for.
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Re: Who has the most skilled army

PostPosted by imp » Thu Aug 31, 2017 19:38

Tourneys! tourneys, man! knights are elite warriors. We have History of tourneys in Westeros;
now, of course, it does not necessarily define the most skilled army, but the results are quite interesting.
Number of times when the champion was a representative of a certain culture (including the best participants in aborted tourneys; the same persons were counted several times for every win, i.e. Barristan Selmy, Jaime Lannister, and some others):

12 Stormlanders (including Robert Baratheon at Harrenhal)
6 Rivermen
5 Reachmen (including Leo Tyrell at Ashford Meadow, and Glendon Flowers at Whitewalls)
4 Westermen
3 Valemen (including Jon Arryn at Harrenhal)
2 Dornishmen
1 Crownlander (Clement Crabb)
1 Northman (Jorah Mormont at Lannisport)

6 Targaryens
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Re: Who has the most skilled army

PostPosted by Mirith » Fri Sep 01, 2017 21:03

Am I crazy to think, that Rivermen... even common folk must be pretty good fighters?
They may not be the most skilled, but Riverlands has been always troubled region with many battles occurring on their territory.
Assuming this, people there probably learned how to defend themselves.
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