Who has the most skilled army

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Who has the most skilled army

PostPosted by Syrio » Mon Jul 11, 2016 21:20

I have been wondering, who's army in Westeros has the most skilled soldiers. So not in terms of numbers, instead, as in the two opposing armies are of equal amount, which would be more skilled in their arms. Maybe Dorne as they have repelled the Iron Throne before with their skilled use of their spears?
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Re: Who has the most skilled army

PostPosted by LancelotLoire » Tue Jul 12, 2016 09:43

I don't think Dorne is very skillful to be fair. The majority of their success is not because they are particularly skilled but because they live in a shithole.

The Iron Islands don't rate very high because the combat would most likely be on land.. And they aren't that skilled in land combat anymore.

The Riverlands military skill is almost nonexistent. They are like France, always getting invaded :twisted:

Just based off of averages, the Reach and Westerlands armies are too large which actually drops the average skill level on a whole. Even though based off of wealth, they would easily be able to have some of the most skilled armies.

With all that said... I'd say probably the North, Vale and Stormlands would probably top the list for most skilled armies.

But in the end a skilled army only counts for so much if you don't have a skilled commander.
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Re: Who has the most skilled army

PostPosted by azaghal » Tue Jul 12, 2016 21:28

I wouldn't say the Riverlands have unskilled soldiers. They just lack good natural borders, everyone else has.

Most armies in Westeros are mostly levies, few "professional" soldiers, guards and still fewer mounted troops and knights.

All in all the less populated lands have fiercer soldiers, and things like "a hard land breeds hard men" is true too.
So the North and the Stormlands have good soldiers, and Dornishmen are skilled too (if they were not, they wouldn't have had the power to sack cities like Oldtown in past wars.)

I'd rank "same size armies"
North > Stormlands > Reach (larger Knight-Part in the Army) > rest.
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Re: Who has the most skilled army

PostPosted by Themoonlightsculptor » Thu Jul 14, 2016 02:12

I would say the most skilled is either ironborn or northman.
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Re: Who has the most skilled army

PostPosted by azaghal » Thu Jul 14, 2016 07:01

The ironborn lack discipline, wich makes them really suck at traditional landbased warfare. The only thing that allowed them to conquer and hold the riverlands, was the riverlander lords infighting (Lady Blackwood was fighting the ironborn and attacked in the rear by Lord Bracken and so on...)
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Re: Who has the most skilled army

PostPosted by LancelotLoire » Thu Jul 14, 2016 09:26

You're forgetting one thing azaghal. A large amount of Riverland lords were actually freely joining the Ironborn to get out from under the Storm Kings.
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Re: Who has the most skilled army

PostPosted by azaghal » Thu Jul 14, 2016 12:15

Yep, did forget to mention that^^ doesn't really do anything against my point^^
The weakness of the riverlands is not their lack of good soldiers, but their lack of unity. The Stormking was supported by the Blackwoods, the Ironborn by the Brackens, Tully's tried to fight both and so on. If the riverlords have a common goal, they are capable of great success (like in the dance of dragons)
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Re: Who has the most skilled army

PostPosted by SinStar87 » Thu Jul 14, 2016 12:42

If you are taking them at their best, the Vale, trained and equipped cavalry>footmen. If you are talking at the beginning of War of the Five Kings, then Ironborn, they live a life of struggle and fighting, numbers being equal they'd win. Discipline is great, but experience coupled with personal courage is great as well.
Last edited by SinStar87 on Thu Jul 14, 2016 20:29, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Who has the most skilled army

PostPosted by azaghal » Thu Jul 14, 2016 20:25

Why does everybody think the ironborn have great soldiers?
The only times they fight are either against undefended coastal villages or with massive numerical advantage.
When they meet resistance (Crannogmen) they are done.
Experience in fighting is an advantage in war, but ironborn reaving targets weak merchant ships and villages.
They are good at fast attacks and get a bit of loot and captured woman to the ships before defenders can organize, fighting a pitched battle is a whole different thing.
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Re: Who has the most skilled army

PostPosted by SinStar87 » Thu Jul 14, 2016 20:33

Because the ironborn are hard, literally living lives of killing, idk why you all are praising the North, sure you have your Jorah's and Greatjon's but your average soldier is a peasant levy. A person who had a spear shoved in their hands a few months ago versus a person who goes out and kills people for a living, or just as often, for entertainment, smart money is on the killer.
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Re: Who has the most skilled army

PostPosted by azaghal » Thu Jul 14, 2016 20:42

SinStar87 wrote:Because the ironborn are hard, literally living lives of killing, idk why you all are praising the North, sure you have your Jorah's and Greatjon's but your average soldier is a peasant levy. A person who had a spear shoved in their hands a few months ago versus a person who goes out and kills people for a living, smart money is on the killer.


Most ironborn are levies, too. If you fish most of the year or farm most of the year shouldn't make a difference for your fighting capabilities.

The North has few people, that means they have to train their soldiers better.
In essence it would be the same with the ironmen, but they don't really try (or have to) to be good at traditonal warfare, because they are best in navy-based warfare.

To be honest, the differences between normal armies of same size should be negatable by commander-skill and battlefield tactics.

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Re: Who has the most skilled army

PostPosted by SinStar87 » Thu Jul 14, 2016 21:03

That's a major assumption, they have fewer people because they live in a giant frozen desert, it has no bearing on training. Their advantage is their natural barrier of the Neck not their force of arms. Ironborn, however, enjoy their violence, unless I'm mistaken they revere their old ways of raiding and pillaging.
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Re: Who has the most skilled army

PostPosted by LancelotLoire » Thu Jul 14, 2016 22:03

Just because somebody enjoys violence, doesn't mean they are skilled at it. Honestly all of their raiding and pillaging is usually against completely undefended people on the coast or in boats. They are actually ingraining very bad combat decisions in themselves by doing this. The things they typically fight are very light armed merchant vessels where the person is likely to surrender to save their lives, or they are raiding coastal areas. It is also stated many times that at sea they are a force to be reckoned with but on land they aren't.
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Re: Who has the most skilled army

PostPosted by SinStar87 » Fri Jul 15, 2016 04:12

Maybe I'm misunderstanding the question then, my inference was a tactical neutrality(no land or commander skill advantages on either side) and it's x average soldiers vs x average soldiers.
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Re: Who has the most skilled army

PostPosted by LancelotLoire » Fri Jul 15, 2016 09:26

The Ironborn's 'land' advantage is the ocean. If you were to have a tiger, lion, panther, cheetah, puma, a bear, and a shark in a cage and made them fight.. You wouldn't be putting the shark into a vat of water and giving it a special advantage.
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Re: Who has the most skilled army

PostPosted by SinStar87 » Fri Jul 15, 2016 09:35

So give the advantage to the Lions, Wolves, Snakes, Stags, and Falcons and put the poor shark on land to suffocate and flop around?
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Re: Who has the most skilled army

PostPosted by LancelotLoire » Fri Jul 15, 2016 10:01

If the shark wants to play with the big cats, it has to play in the sand box. Okay enough cat comments lol. The Ironborn aren't exactly an army composed of soldiers. They are a navy full of sailors who sometimes make an incursion onto land. As this is pretty much a discussion about whose soldiers are tougher, you kinda have to forget about the naval aspect of the Ironborn entirely and only focus on the times when they are on land. Which is noted that they are terrible at. I mean if we were talking about which of the kingdoms has the strongest navy, we wouldn't be talking about their armies.
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Re: Who has the most skilled army

PostPosted by SinStar87 » Fri Jul 15, 2016 10:09

They are marines not just sailors, they board enemy ships and fight when they have to. here in the US our marines are so prized they got their own branch of the military, named Marines(Technically Marine Corps).

You keep saying, it's said they are terrible on land, but no further context. Do they trip over their own feet when they dare touch land or something? I'm guessing not and it's just their usual tactics don't fit well in Pitched Combat and Siege Warfare like their real life Viking counterparts.

I freely admit I haven't, and have no plans to, read the books, so only have wiki researches and the mod to go on, could be the Ironborn haven't reaved since the Greyjoys took power, negating their violence, based on the quotes in the wikis.
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Re: Who has the most skilled army

PostPosted by blackninja9939 » Fri Jul 15, 2016 10:53

Aren't the USMC more known for being brawn over brains in most cases?
Also wait you haven't read the books....
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Re: Who has the most skilled army

PostPosted by SinStar87 » Fri Jul 15, 2016 11:15

blackninja9939 wrote:Aren't the USMC more known for being brawn over brains in most cases?

And ninja was never seen nor heard from again. They're also some of, if not the, best snipers in the world.
Also wait you haven't read the books....

No, I haven't, started with the tv show and then came here for a while and looked up info, then did research for mods and descriptions and stuff and learned most of the story lines. I don't find much entertainment in reading anymore, more enjoyable to create.
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