Would you have told Cat? (Spoilers)

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Would you have told Cat? (Spoilers)

PostPosted by cyanidebaby » Sun Sep 18, 2016 18:48

If you were Ned, would you have told Cat what you'd found at the Tower of Joy? Even perhaps years later once you loved and trusted her?
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Re: Would you have told Cat? (Spoilers)

PostPosted by SinStar87 » Sun Sep 18, 2016 19:10

Yes. Once he's in the North and behind the "Wall" of loyal vassals, Jon's relatively safe from Rob's ire which seems to be the general idea for why he hid it(in universe anyway). So there's no real reason not to tell her, the kids I wouldn't tell and would keep up the general facade because kids are stupid. And even Robert eventually understands that all Targs aren't responsible for his losses and thus shouldn't be slaughtered( admittedly it was on his death bed but still.)

And if I could choose when, it'd be soon after her "Make him die" "Oh shit he's dying, never mind make him live" moment so she would fully understand it.
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Re: Would you have told Cat? (Spoilers)

PostPosted by cyanidebaby » Sun Sep 18, 2016 19:40

I think I would too, for several reasons:

1. Cat is loyal. She's not going to tell anyone, and it's not like anyone suspects anyway. Also, with Brandon dying while trying to save Lyanna, how likely is it that Cat would pee all over what her former betrothed lost his life for? She'd be betraying TWO men she loved in doing so! Just tell her privately where nobody else will overhear.

2. Robert is far away, and you could just deny the hell out of the rumours anyway. Call him out for doubting your dead sister for the sake of a rumour and see how quickly he backs off then. Jon has dark hair and eyes, he doesn't scream "I'M A TARGARYEN" anyway.

3. My nephew deserves a mother figure, even if he, through necessity, believes himself to be a bastard. I couldn't see a child resented that way. Ned is Jon's father in all but DNA, and if Cat wasn't haunted by images of Ned cheating with a prostitute and then bringing his son home without so much as a 'by your leave' perhaps she could have bonded with the infant.
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Re: Would you have told Cat? (Spoilers)

PostPosted by Azsouth » Mon Sep 19, 2016 05:27

well with the direction this thread is going it would seem everyone in here so far agrees w/ the showrunners that Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna. I don't actually subscribe to this theory as it's been widely accepted for to long and despite what most people think about the showrunners I do think they are trying to make the show as different from what the future books will be as possible and the R+L=J theory was the most convenient one. Also they saw the disaster that Dorne was and probably didn't want to introduce anymore characters from the region (like ALL the Daynes except Ser Arthur). If I'm correct it would mean a huge divergence from the books and show that anyone who cares to read the books from here on out will know the actual parentage GRRM intended (when he gets around to writing them, if he does choose to throw this curveball) that with the now huge audience he has he will still be able to surprise people rather than the show spoiling everything in the last few seasons because they ran out of material. We all know that GRRM's test for the showrunners was who they thought Jon's parents where, so if they decided to change it, right now it's only them and George who actually know :).

to answer the question posed by the thread, If I was Ned I would have probably told Cat that Jon was the legitimate heir to the North by Brandon and Ashara (who probably got married in secret while he was imprisoned at the red keep)

lets look at the books and early show and how it treats DNA, you would think Targ features would be recessive to ALL other family features but that is not how it works in this world, according to the book of linages in the first season All children born in the Baratehon line had the same features which is how super detective Ned and co (Jon Arryn) found out that Robert didn't have any children w/ Cersei. We know from lore that Lannisters have married into the Baratheon line before and their features remained unchanged, same w/ Baratheons marrying into the Lannisters, the fathers genes always seem to be more dominant over the mothers. The only time this gets somewhat muddled is when the Targs and Martells intermarry and even then only like 2 members of the Targ dynasty are ever described as having anything but Targ features and those where Baelor Breakspear and Rhaenys (Rhaegars daughter) so going by the early show and book logic if Lyanna and Rhaegar had a child it would look like Rhaegar meaning it was most likely Danny or even more far fetched Aegon. On the other hand this also supports if Brandon and Ashara had a child it would look like Brandon making it easier for Ned to hide (important note: Daynes have similar features to Targs). So according to book and early show logic R+L=D and B+A=J

to support this, why would Ned stay in Kings Landing after quiting the small council about Robert having an assassin murder a Targ girl that had just been married off to a horse lord when he started having fever dreams about his promise to Lyanna and the Tower of Joy, dreams that ultimately made him decide to stay in Kings Landing and lead to his death as a result when he knew Jon was safe at the wall and had renounced all his claims to anything when he joined the Nights Watch? The only person who was a known Targ and was even in the realm of possibilities that Ned might be breaking his promise to Lyanna was Danny at the time.
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Re: Would you have told Cat? (Spoilers)

PostPosted by SinStar87 » Mon Sep 19, 2016 05:42

But wasn't Dany born on Dragonstone and in Essos before the Tower of Joy events? He stayed in King's Landing for the same reason he went in the first place, he felt his fool of a friend was in trouble. He had fever dreams because his friend's Death to Targ ire was back up and reminded him that he had a Targ parading as his bastard.
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Re: Would you have told Cat? (Spoilers)

PostPosted by JohnGames » Mon Sep 19, 2016 19:10

no no no, cat mainly cares about her children, that's why she sent jon away in the first place, if her children were captured and she had leverage to make the throne give her children back then he would throw jon snow into the fire and trade him for sansa....

the only point where cat would have been useful with this info was as long as ned was a live, but as soon as he dies, and this stays with cat, she would not give a rat's ass about the other side of stark family she would care about her riverland side ._. so in the end no i would not have told cat ,_, is a life kept secret promise, ned did good.
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Re: Would you have told Cat? (Spoilers)

PostPosted by SinStar87 » Mon Sep 19, 2016 19:22

Yeah her children were in trouble 14 years later, 14 years of bs for the stark family, tell cat after the make him die stuff so she understands how shit it is, tell jon when he's off to the wall "Look, the wall's a shit place of assholes and criminals, but you'll be safe, and I promised(totally did not) your mom, my sis, that I'd keep you safe. I'm sorry you've not had the best life but it's the best I could think of, I hope you can forgive me someday. PS cat's kinda shitty and wanted you dead as a kid so if I get my head chopped off in king's landing or something, don't be surprised if assassins and stuff start showing up."

More over, like she wouldn't turn him over as Ned's bastard given the option, Lannisters and Boltons were already gunning for him after Ned was dead anyway, his Targ and Lyananess wouldn't impact that.
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Re: Would you have told Cat? (Spoilers)

PostPosted by armychowmein » Thu Sep 22, 2016 18:05

No. Cat isn't very bright. She's very shrewd, but she's not very aware of what's going on around her. Also, she trusts too many people to be given a secret like that, like her sister. Finally, she makes a lot of spur of the moment decisions based upon emotions. Completely unlike Ned.
Also, its important to understand that how Cat goes, house Tully goes. Cat marries into house Stark, but of her children, only females and weaklings remain. House Tully aligns with Rob, but in the end, they're left with a weakling Edmure and a now dead Lysa. Also, just rumors of Jon being a Targ would have ruined the relationship between Robert and Eddard. Robert's lust for the death of all Targs was enough to make Eddard rethink his loyalty to Robert. That being said, one of the reasons why Jon's lineage stayed secret is because the only two people to know were Eddard and Howland. And no one in Westeros gives two craps about Crannogmen.
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Re: Would you have told Cat? (Spoilers)

PostPosted by SinStar87 » Thu Sep 22, 2016 18:17

How can you be shrewd and not bright? She trusted trustworthy people as far as I'm aware. She didn't trust Lysa with any secrets, she just took tyrion to her to try and get revenge. The only misplaced trust was in Little Finger but apparently in the books everyone trusts him. Cat could have been trusted with Jon's parents before Ned died, that's the point. The only time it would have benefited Cat was after Ned's death and after his Death Jon was already in trouble, people knowing his parentage at that point wouldn't have made any difference.
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Re: Would you have told Cat? (Spoilers)

PostPosted by armychowmein » Thu Sep 22, 2016 18:24

She trusted the vassals (albeit, not the Boltons) of Ned too much, giving too much creedance to the Cerwyns, the Flints, the Karstarks, and whatshernuts' family who had a major crush on Brandon Stark (whose husband went with Ned in the ToJ incident but Ned never returned his bones).

It's very easy to be shrewd and not very bright... Donald Trump?

And it's not really about whether it benefits Cat as much as whether Ned would have thought it would have benefited House Stark.
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Re: Would you have told Cat? (Spoilers)

PostPosted by SinStar87 » Thu Sep 22, 2016 18:29

Examples? I'm only going on a little research and the TV show.

I don't think that word means what you think it means.

Threads question is would we have told not why Ned didn't tell.
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Re: Would you have told Cat? (Spoilers)

PostPosted by armychowmein » Thu Sep 22, 2016 18:34

I also tend to believe Dany will be the first non-reed or non-stark to know of Jon's true parentage. Seeing as how she has had dreams of being Rhaegar, and dreams involving snow and winter, it would seem to foreshadow her learning of her kinship to Jon via dreams. Honestly, there's part of me that hopes she finds out on the way to Westeros and, instead of allying with Jon, she ends up having to fight him and burns the North for the first time, since Torrhen knelt. RR is a sadist... Do you really think he'll let Jon and Dany live happily ever after?
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Re: Would you have told Cat? (Spoilers)

PostPosted by SinStar87 » Thu Sep 22, 2016 18:58

I don't know him or his works well enough to say. He hasn't killed Tyrion or Dany yet, and Jon is supposed to be reborn from his death at some point.
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Re: Would you have told Cat? (Spoilers)

PostPosted by armychowmein » Thu Sep 22, 2016 19:23

Yeah, that's true. I just tend to not believe all these theories that Jon and Dany will get along, win the Iron Throne, and everyone lives happily ever after. I really want to see Jon and Dany battle it out
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Re: Would you have told Cat? (Spoilers)

PostPosted by SinStar87 » Thu Sep 22, 2016 19:30

It'll be Eagles that somehow win the day. :))
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Re: Would you have told Cat? (Spoilers)

PostPosted by armychowmein » Thu Sep 22, 2016 19:32

They'll fly Dany away from Mount Doom and take them to Corusaunt to learn the ways of the Vulcans...
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Re: Would you have told Cat? (Spoilers)

PostPosted by Bradok » Sat Oct 01, 2016 17:46

I was actually really disappointed with season six of the show simply because I felt like the writers gave the fans what they wanted to happen rather than what should have happened. Prime example, Jon coming back to life. He is by far my favorite character in the books and show, don't get me wrong, but having him revive was kinda meh for me. Now we have to say "Is he Azor Ahai now?" and go through that whole little thing since Stannis is dead. I also really don't think Jon would have just dipped from the wall after he came back. He has Ned's sense of honor and it just didn't fit the character we came to know.

Another example of how the writers gave us what fans want is with Tyrion and the Dragons. In the books the two of them were so ravenous and hateful, even to Dany, that they had to be locked up. Do you think they wouldn't have eaten him? I sure don't.

As for the question at hand. In the books we actually get to see a bit of Bran's vision into the past, albeit not all of it. We are expected to finally figure out what happens in the next book but that is still a good bit away. I do think Jon is the bastard of Rhaegar, and the reason why is this. For Jon's entire life he never told him anything about his mother and the day he rides off to the Wall Ned finally agrees to speak with him on it. I think Ned's logic was simple as 'If Jon is at the Night's Watch Robert will have no need to go after him since his bloodline will die out anyway.' or something along those lines. Not to say Ned didn't love Jon, because he did, just that he knew how fearsome Robert could be when it came to Lyana.

I don't think Ned would have ever told Cat. He loves and trusts her, true, but he loved his sister more. If Ned gave his sister his word that he would raise her child as his own, and taking in to account how honorable Ned is and how much oaths matter to him, I don't think he would have broken his promise to her.
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