Where's Westeros's Valyrian steel? - Share your ideas

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Re: Where's Westeros's Valyrian steel? - Share your ideas

PostPosted by Mirith » Sat Oct 22, 2016 17:28

Some swords could have been reforged by Marwyn. He's got valyrian steel rod and mask.
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Re: Where's Westeros's Valyrian steel? - Share your ideas

PostPosted by Lord Audiate » Sat Oct 22, 2016 17:51

Marwyn is definitely an interesting dude.

I'm personally convinced that that 227 Valyrian blades includes the odd dagger here and there. It seems too high a number if it only counts proper weapons (so excluding daggers) if many of them were owned by nobility. And if there are tons of blades that are lost, which I totally believe is possible, how would they be counted among those 227? By 227, I'm sure they meant known swords and roughly their locations.

As for the great houses of Westeros's history, there's some interesting things to consider. In the Reach, there are at least two Valyrian steel swords belonging to noble houses, and it's relatively understandable that the Tarly's wouldn't own a sword because of how "new" they are. The Gardeners, however, surely had to have one. It's really bizarre to me that a house like Tarly would own one but their liege wouldn't. Hightowers I can understand--they're in control of one of the largest cities in the western world and are in total cahoots with the Maesters. But Gardeners not having a sword?!

I'm not surprised that the Arryns and Durrandons don't have Valyrian steel, since they probably couldn't afford one, though it is bizarre that they haven't obtained one some way other than just buying one. The Martells, too, don't shock me by not having Valyrian steel--if they care about their Rhoynish lineage they probably wouldn't even want one. The only enigma that confuses me in terms of a house that DOES have one is Stark's Ice. How did they get it, and why would they have one? My only real guess is that Valyria sort of dubbed the Starks as protectors of the North, giving them Ice both to unify the North out of respect and fear as well as to have a proper tool to combat the Others with, which we know are vulnerable to Valyrian steel.

I'm convinced the Greyjoys originally owned Nightfall, and it wasn't something taken by them only to immediately give to House Harlaw. It doesn't fit the character of Dalton Greyjoy to do that. But it is a bit bizarre that no other kings of the Iron Islands are known for having Valyrian steel.

There also might be an amount of pettier blades in the Maesters' possession that they use to forge the Valyrian links, and it's possible that the masks and rods of the Archmaesters originated in the ones made of Valyrian steel, since it would likely be harder to properly forge them; it seems like Valyrian steel can lose more than just its sharp edge when reformed, but be essentially destroyed from use if reforged improperly. Just a thought.

I'm certain some half of the Valyrian steel swords we know of are in the possession of noble or knightly houses, in places we don't know much of or haven't heard about at all.
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Re: Where's Westeros's Valyrian steel? - Share your ideas

PostPosted by SinStar87 » Sat Oct 22, 2016 21:49

LancelotLoire wrote:I am not too interested in plot points as a way. Especially considering that they basically brought it to the original owner of the dagger.

As for a list, it said there are about 227 valyrian blades in Westeros and only a thousand or two left in the world. If they included knives in that list, do you believe that anybody in their right mind would bet a dagger on a tournament? Or just leave it in a chest for a stupid child to give to an assassin? Logic has to conclude just based off of the fluid movements of the dagger between people that the daggers are of incredibly low value and not included in the insanely small amount listed (227 for Westeros, thousand or two for rest of world).

Probably not, but LF probably isn't that much in his right mind. And, as far as I'm aware, the other guy isn't known for being very careful with his valuables. I'm not saying the daggers are as valuable as the swords(Alot of the value of the swords seems to be prestige though), just that they are rare enough that they can track down an owner of one. As such can't be discounted from an unspecified list of blades.
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Re: Where's Westeros's Valyrian steel? - Share your ideas

PostPosted by Lord Audiate » Sun Oct 23, 2016 03:53

I've been doing some research and stumbled upon something fairly interesting, but perhaps irrelevant. I'm still deciding.

In A Game of Thrones, Catelyn talks about Ice being forged in Valyria about 400 years before the present time. This means that it was forged about 100 years before Aegon's Conquest, which is just about when the Doom of Valyria happened. So, naturally, I decided to do some digging on who the first Stark wielder of Ice was, but the most I could find was in-game via the History of The North empire title. Though it showed me something fairly interesting.

The mod team compiled the lineage together using substance matter from the books, and pretty well I would say. However, the books don't detail anything about time (or how long a king served for so that we could figure the times out on our own), so it's not entirely accurate in terms of making references from. However, there was one king a few generations away from the estimated time that Ice made its way to Westeros, who had a pretty weirdly interesting nickname. Edderion 'the Bridegroom.'

Bridegroom, if it's as simple as it seems, just means bride's groom, or husband. So, perhaps this king was named after his wife, who could be the reason the Starks have Ice? Perhaps his wife was Valyrian, and her family gave it to him as a gift (quite a generous gift at that), or perhaps there was something more sinister going on. This could easily just be my imagination running absolutely insane, but could it be possible that this King Edderion sacrificed his wife to forge Ice, similarly to how Azor Ahai forged Lightbringer by sacrificing his wife? It's likely not something the word-of-mouth society would like to talk about much, which makes sense of why we haven't heard about it, and it goes hand in hand with what I'm convinced Valyrian steel is made with.

Also, in the mod, Edderion is the first Stark who owns Ice, which confirms the theory that the whole dev team is actually GRRM, because Edderion being the first wielder matches up with my theory. #Confirmed

I don't know. I've been doing research. Found this, thought it was interesting. What do you guys think?
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Re: Where's Westeros's Valyrian steel? - Share your ideas

PostPosted by LancelotLoire » Sun Oct 23, 2016 09:49

Likely reasons for the name.
+The King had several marriages because he kept ending the marriage (Via annulment or execution).
+The King died around the time of his wedding due to any number of reasons (heart gave out in bedding ceremony, choked on a chicken bone, poisoned... countless things)
+The Kings wife/soon-to-be wife dies not long before/after their wedding ceremony and he remains unmarried.
+The King was never married and it's an insult for his lack of women.

As for Lightbringer...
Azor Ahai, Hyrkoon the Hero, Yin Tar, Neferion, Eldric Shadowchaser, and the Last Hero. So I believe these are all different people.. I think also that they left a mark on the world so to speak after each helped to save various people in their areas..

Azor Ahai - the name is very similar to the name Asshai. I think it is either a corruption and that his name was Azor Asshai, OR in some ancient language the "ss" added into the name Asshai gives it an honorific.
Hyrkoon the Hero - very plausible that there was a man named Hyrkoon whom that kingdom was named after, or he founded it himself.
Yin Tar - The city of Yin (could have been named after him) as well as the name Yi Ti being derived from his name in his honor.
Neferion - Could have been the founder of the city of Nefer, or even had a previous city named after him for saving them during the long night.
Eldric Shadowchaser - Typical Andal name.
Last Hero - Westerosi hero whom was most likely some Stark king I'm guessing.

Now onto the actual Lightbringer.. I don't think that it was actually a sword at all. It's most likely that his child was born just before the night ended and so the sword piercing the woman is a reference to intercourse instead, and that the Lightbringer name was a suffix granted to him as the long night ended during his reign. So he was Azor Asshai the Lightbringer, not Azor Ahai who owned a sword named Lightbringer. Their is also a possibility that she was killed in a bloodmagic ritual to attempt to end the longnight which inadvertantly ended not long afterwards, and so they claimed him the Lightbringer. But the Asshai aren't known for telling the truth son chances are the first story is the most likely.
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Re: Where's Westeros's Valyrian steel? - Share your ideas

PostPosted by Lord Audiate » Tue Oct 25, 2016 18:14

I doubt an entire world with many different cultures all have different heroes who did the same exact thing with the same exact story, and I further doubt that they'd all involve a sword of fire only to be actually about a child. If there was much more variation on the story, sure, I could see some being wrong or symbolic, but by writing them all to be basically about the same guy, doing roughly the same thing, wielding the same sword of fire, I'm sure GRRM wanted to specify that it was one person represented in many cultures' legends because his tale was so massive and important that even a world full of nations without much contact between each other knows of the story, and since they're mostly clueless of the world, they just passed the character off as one of their own kind. Citing the wiki, "Azor Ahai was a legendary hero who wielded a burning sword called Lightbringer, according to tales from Asshai and followers of R'hllor. In some other cultures this warrior is called Hyrkoon the Hero, Yin Tar, Neferion, and Eldric Shadowchaser." This gives some reason to believe that these cultures named the hero after their own nations, because he was simply that important to the world. It's likely that places like Yi Ti existed far prior to Azor Ahai, so it's more likely they named him after their own instead of the other way around. We don't actually know when Azor Ahai existed, which eludes to him being of a very old legend, but who's really to say.

Regarding the Stark king, yes, there was probably some other reason for the nickname, but this is a thread for theorizing and thinking out of the box on what subtle hints could mean. The reason I mentioned him was more involving their sword, Ice, which was obtained around the time of his rule, just before (presumably before, though it could be after) the Doom of Valyria.
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Re: Where's Westeros's Valyrian steel? - Share your ideas

PostPosted by LancelotLoire » Wed Oct 26, 2016 12:15

Alright I'm now home from work, so I can actually put some effort into a post and not deal with the stupid autocorrect messing up what I am trying to say.

The long night was "supposed to have" happened 8000 years prior, but realistically it probably only happened about half that time prior. It is most likely that there were multiple "heroes" who as the years passed their stories merged together. Most likely similar to what happened to Bran the Builder. A good quote about it would be "Those old histories are full of kings who reigned for a hundred years, and knights riding around a thousand years before there were knights".

First there was Hyrkoon the warrior with a fiery sword who rode into battle to defend his people from the things that come out of the darkness, and Azor Ahai who was forced to kill his wife Nissa Nissa when she was turned into a wight. This story soon becomes Azor Ahai plunged his sword into his wife Nissa Nissa after which his sword burst into flames. See what I did there? I think it is highly likely that it was an amalgamation of multiple heroes that were merged together as the years went by to create one "Super hero" as opposed to several heroes.

As for the cultures lets see...
Yi Ti: Was founded after the long night. Before the long night it was supposedly known as the Great Empire of the Dawn. They claim that the long night began when the Bloodstone Emperor usurped his sister, the Amethyst Empress.
Hyrkoon: Most likely began afterwards as the leaders claimed descent from Hyrkoon the Hero.
N'Ghai: Not much is known, but guessing afterwards.
Andals: Around that time I think they were around the Axe still and had yet to move down to Andalos.
Asshai: City of liars, the origins of the city is not known. But they are known to be liars.

And we do know when Azor Ahai existed. It was during the long night which I mentioned above.


And one quick thing to point out... Torrhen Stark, the King Who Knelt. Edwyn the Spring King. Theon Stark, the Hungry Wolf. Brandon the Burner and Brandon the Shipwright. Jorah and Jonos, Brandon the Bad, Walton the Moon King, Edderion the Bridegroom, Eyron, Benjen the Sweet and Benjen the Bitter, King Edrick Snowbeard. << That's how the line lists them in the book. The order of them is impossible to go off of. For instance we go from Torrhen to Edwyn to Theon. Torrhen was king during Aegon's Conquest, Theon Stark was king during the Andal Invasion. That's the only mention of Edderion as a king so the dev team just placed him wherever they could.
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Re: Where's Westeros's Valyrian steel? - Share your ideas

PostPosted by Lord Audiate » Thu Nov 10, 2016 21:01

This is a pretty interesting tidbit from World that suggests towards Valyrian steel as being blood magic.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Pol

"According to him, the true reason for his final exile was the discovery of blood sacrifice - including that of infant slaves - which the Qohorik smiths use in their efforts to produce steel equal to the original Valyrian steel."

As for Lightbringer, given it's symbolism as always a sword, I have to doubt it being a phallic symbol. GRRM likes to shock, not to troll, and his entire fictional world basically worshiping a penis and the baby it came from is far more a troll than a shock, especially when it will likely never be confirmed. The themes of light vs darkness and good vs evil elude far more towards Azor Ahai being either Valyrian and being one of the first men of Valyria to bring greatness to it or at least the predecessor of Valyrian forging, especially since we know that Valyrian steel's greatest property seems to be its total annihilation of the others. Sure, it can hold its edge, and its a little lighter, but what real purpose does that serve when comparing that to its ability of destroying ice creatures with ease? What else did that? Lightbringer, the sword of Azor Ahai.
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Re: Where's Westeros's Valyrian steel? - Share your ideas

PostPosted by LancelotLoire » Sun Nov 13, 2016 06:42

You can doubt all you want, but the symbolism is there and even more.

"To fight the darkness, Azor Ahai needed to forge a hero's sword. He labored for thirty days and thirty nights until it was done. However, when he went to temper it in water, the sword broke. He was not one to give up easily, so he started over. The second time he took fifty days and fifty nights to make the sword, even better than the first. To temper it this time, he captured a lion and drove the sword into its heart, but once more the steel shattered. The third time, with a heavy heart, for he knew before hand what he must do to finish the blade, he worked for a hundred days and nights until it was finished. This time, he called for his wife, Nissa Nissa, and asked her to bare her breast. He drove his sword into her breast, her soul combining with the steel of the sword, creating Lightbringer, while her cry of anguish and ecstasy left a crack across the face of the moon"


+30 days, 50 days, 100 days. 180 days is about 6 months. Tack on a couple more months for not knowing and we're in pregnancy realm (Pregnancy)
+Thrusting his sword into his wife (Sex)
+Having his wife expose her breast (breastfeeding)
+Cry of Anguish (Pregnancy)
+Cry of Ecstasy (Sex)
+Combination of his sword and his wife's soul (Conception)

Then tack onto this 2 insanely important facts. It took place several thousand years before the time setting.. And the time setting is set during a medieval age period, meaning most information is most likely corrupted.


As for the other bit... Dragonglass (Obsidian) also kills others. Which the creation of is from volcanic molten rock cooling in a way to create it. This all implies that fire is the key aspect. So it's pretty hard to say that the true strength of valyrian steel is that it can kill ice creatures when a piece of glass does the same exact thing.
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Re: Where's Westeros's Valyrian steel? - Share your ideas

PostPosted by Lord Audiate » Sun Nov 13, 2016 17:57

It's not that I fail to see the connections between Lightbringer and conception, you can make infers about anything and there's things that make sense from that, but if there's no reason, no connection, for that symbolism than it's not impacting the story in any way. If Lightbringer is the equivalent to Valyrian steel, then the implications are purposeful, in that they elude to and hint at and suggest the origins/creation process of Valyrian steel, something that is otherwise mysterious and legendary, which is supported in the "modern" era of the books in Qohori blood magic and reforging, connecting in with the value of blood magic in the forging process. However, at the moment, there's nothing that eludes to Lightbringer as a child or the product of contraception in the main storyline. The dragons are sort of lightbringers, white walkers have been appearing not long after the fall of dragons, but where is the process of contraception in the dragons? There's no known sex, birthing, or breastfeeding, at least in the literal sense, that connects to those symbols of pregnancy. You could compare a baby yet to be born as the Lightbringer, who is born of a mother and father who will fight hard against the White Walkers, but it doesn't seem like they have time to mingle, do, wait 9 months, and pop one out. Perhaps it's a current born character, like Jon Snow or Daenerys Targaryen, and Jon Snow is very appealing as this, but there's no real connection between Rhaegar trying and trying trying and failing and failing and failing, or with Lyanna breastfeeding--to be honest, I'm pretty convinced that if Jon Snow was really the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna, it wasn't on purpose. Did Rhaegar really think he could hide a bastard like that, one that's basically the wholesome representation of the reason the War of the Usurper was happening, like Jon Snow was something he worked hard for? Accidents happen, like Jon and most bastards, but plunging a sword in a chest and heart? Less so. Unless GRRM is pushing envelopes, it's not a normal thing or necessarily a good thing to connect extremely vague and symbolic elements with other vague and symbolic elements--there has to be some concrete value to it, or it's left as a loose end. GRRM is about the details, so he won't come out and say "Lightbringer is a person" or "Lightbringer is a sword," but I would expect him to make more concrete points to connect those ideas to, because those concrete points are already there for the Valyrian steel argument--Valyrian steel is efficient at killing white walkers, and blood magic is used in the process of its forging. Yes, the whole story of Azor Ahai and the crafting of Lightbringer is mythological and legendary and over the top, and it makes sense for the story to be twisted in a feudal society like Westeros, but it's a story that stems from Essos, and is connected with the version of the story in Asshai, and the version of the story in Hyrkoon, and in YiTi, and Nefer, and potentially ancient Andalos, and all those stories are seemingly unanimous in that Azor Ahai plunged a sword into the breast of his wife sometime around the time of the long night, because he was chosen to end it and fight against the darkness, and I highly doubt flailing an infant child at white walkers is really any better than a magical sword--just look at Craster, that was pretty much his strategy, and he's dead. Those "insanely important facts" are loose supporting details, trust me, I built an entire analysis and argument that the world is filled with underwater Lovecraftian beings, and tons of the points of that analysis are seemingly more concrete and important to the argument than those two facts, especially given that one of them isn't really a fact, it's implied that the "thousands" of years are much shorter than the people of Westeros think.

Dragonglass is an odd thing. You would think it was made specifically from dragons or in Valyria, but it seems not, since the "weaponized" dragonglass used for speartips and things that the Children of the Forest used far north isn't the same sort of thing as the dragonglass candles. If Valyrians knew of the Others, and it's entirely possible they did not because their imperial reach was only so far despite having dragons, and the Others were seemingly gone during the period that the Freehold existed, they would have kept obsidian around. But, if the Lightbringer = Valyrian Steel = Valyria theory of mine is at all accurate, then there's no reason for them to keep obsidian when it's far more brittle than steel. After all, that's the main difference between steel, Valyrian steel, and obsidian. Both steels are more durable than obsidian, while Valyrian steel and obsidian are effective weapons against white walkers. So, knowing that, Valyrian steel is just more effective at doing either of those things. However, it is clear that both Valyrian steel and obsidian have magical properties, though obsidian is seemingly more multipurposed than Valyrian steel, since it can be made into essentially the world's first facetime, or at least phone calls. Getting back on topic, as discussed here before (I think), there seems to be a connection between pretty much all forms of magic in the world. Fire and blood magic seem to be two in the same, which is likely why the Targaryens took them as their house words. The big difference to remember is the difference between an obsidian spear tip and a Valyrian steel sword, knowing they do basically the same thing: swords are easier to fight with than brittle glass tied to tree branches. If Valyrians discovered that blood/fire magic makes some pretty amazing weapons, specifically capable of destroying others but ALSO able to hold up against other steel and keep its edge, they'd probably kill slaves left and right and keep making the swords.
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Re: Where's Westeros's Valyrian steel? - Share your ideas

PostPosted by SinStar87 » Sun Nov 13, 2016 18:33

LancelotLoire wrote:You can doubt all you want, but the symbolism is there and even more.
"...The second time he took fifty days and fifty nights to make the sword, even better than the first. To temper it this time, he captured a lion and drove the sword into its heart, but once more the steel shattered..."

So according to you, Lancelot, he had sex with a lion first? Curious, is the sword breaking a symbol of impotence or overexcitement in the deed?
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Re: Where's Westeros's Valyrian steel? - Share your ideas

PostPosted by LancelotLoire » Mon Nov 14, 2016 00:24

@SinStar: Cougars are also known as Mountain LIONS. A Cougar is also a term used for an older and slightly predatory female.

@Lord Audiate: Will break this down into a few key points.

Lightbringer/Valyrian Steel:
Lets say that Lightbringer is a sword for this argument real quick. The sword radiated heat and was illuminated. No valyrian sword has that property. There is also no mention of the sword being indestructible. So what we have here is 2 things. A sword that has properties that Valyrian swords DON'T have, and a sword that DOESN'T have the properties of Valyrian swords.

Qohori blacksmiths don't use blood magic in reforging Valyrian swords thats I'm aware of. Seeing as how Tobho Mott would most likely have been arrested after reforging Ice. Tywin would have let him complete the work but most likely would have arrested him after the work was done. That's the kind of person he is.

The whole story of Azor Ahai has the feel of a creation story to it. You are saying that it doesn't seem likely that they'd conceive a child and then wait the 9 months for it to be born. But it's okay for you that he'd spend half a year forging a sword while sitting on his thumb?

I never said that Azor Ahai was going around flailing an infant child at white walkers. That is just freaking ludicrous. The long night was supposed to have lasted for a full generation. I'm saying that Azor Ahai = Lightbringer. And that story about the sword isn't that Azor Ahai sired a child with that woman. But that Azor Ahai WAS the child.

Your argument mostly lays on the fact that the Valyrians would have been creating Valyrian steel to combat the Others. So tell me this extremely important bit of information you've seem to forgotten. How did the Valyrians come across the Others? The Others vanished not long after the long night ended. Not to mention have the Others ever been in Essos to begin with? Then there is also the issue that the Valyrian Peninsula is hot. I don't think the Others could even survive on Valyria from the heat of the Volcanoes.
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Re: Where's Westeros's Valyrian steel? - Share your ideas

PostPosted by SinStar87 » Mon Nov 14, 2016 00:25

LancelotLoire wrote:@SinStar: Cougars are also known as Mountain LIONS. A Cougar is also a term used for an older and slightly predatory female.

LOL!! Ok you win, that's too funny. Can't breathe.
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Re: Where's Westeros's Valyrian steel? - Share your ideas

PostPosted by Lord Audiate » Mon Nov 14, 2016 01:33

LancelotLoire wrote:Lets say that Lightbringer is a sword for this argument real quick. The sword radiated heat and was illuminated. No valyrian sword has that property. There is also no mention of the sword being indestructible. So what we have here is 2 things. A sword that has properties that Valyrian swords DON'T have, and a sword that DOESN'T have the properties of Valyrian swords.


You're acting now as if metaphors are non-applicable when your whole conception theory was built on metaphors. Out of any people in the known world, Valyrians were/are the most associated with fire--their lands had fourteen volcanoes (fifteen including Dragonstone), they rode giant beasts that spit fire and are known to hatch in fire (or not, in situations of Aegon V at Summerhall), the lands they had most influence over and were closest to them almost unanimously worship the Lord of Light, and they mostly all died in fire. In regards to the durability, since when is the lack of detail the equivalent to detail opposing connection? The Lightbringer was said to be made of fire, but I still argue that it's early Valyrian steel. Fire isn't necessarily "destructible," in fact, it's known for doing pretty much nothing but the destroying.

LancelotLoire wrote:Qohori blacksmiths don't use blood magic in reforging Valyrian swords thats I'm aware of. Seeing as how Tobho Mott would most likely have been arrested after reforging Ice. Tywin would have let him complete the work but most likely would have arrested him after the work was done. That's the kind of person he is.


As for the Qohori, specifically Tobho Mott, who's to say he didn't use blood magic? Varys had been doing a lot of things under Tywin's nose, hell, so had his children. Tobho Mott told Tywin that "he tried to color the swords the crimson of House Lannister, but despite his spells the steel darkened to grey and red patterns." Spells are spells, and mostly all spells have to do with blood, as discussed on the first page of the thread, but who's to say for sure but GRRM. However, this is something of interesting note, which I posted a few posts back, but you clearly seemed to have missed that and posted anyway.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Pol

It's a very small detail in the collectiveness of World of Ice and Fire, and for good reason. Anyway, there's your cold, hard hint.

LancelotLoire wrote:The whole story of Azor Ahai has the feel of a creation story to it. You are saying that it doesn't seem likely that they'd conceive a child and then wait the 9 months for it to be born. But it's okay for you that he'd spend half a year forging a sword while sitting on his thumb?


The reason I find it absurd to wait around for a child rather than the perfect sword is the desperation people would have had during the Long Night, which is when Azor Ahai had lived. He would surely be terrified, trying hard to craft the perfect sword that would destroy the Great Other, not horny as fuck because of it and eager to squirt a baby into his wife and see it grow up a couple months or years until the others come to kill all three of them. Now THAT sounds ridiculous. The chief difference is, pregnancy to birth is a long wait, while crafting weapons is a stressful process when your life is dependent on it and you know your enemies aren't effected by normal swords.

It's important to consider the forging process of Lightbringer. The first time he tempered it, he used water (frozen in the Long Night), which broke it. He then tried a lion, and here's where it splits. One possibility is that he dabbled with blood magic, knowing it could save him and his wife, who could have been alone together at that point, so to save his wife he tried the sacrific/ritual/whatever on a lion, and it wasn't good enough, so it broke. Another possibility is that the lion eludes to an Other, as does the Lion of Night to the Great Other. Azor Ahai did live in Asshai, which isn't too far from YiTi, where that story is chiefly practiced. Lastly, he used his wife for the process, another human, which finally worked, creating Lightbringer.

LancelotLoire wrote:I never said that Azor Ahai was going around flailing an infant child at white walkers. That is just freaking ludicrous. The long night was supposed to have lasted for a full generation. I'm saying that Azor Ahai = Lightbringer. And that story about the sword isn't that Azor Ahai sired a child with that woman. But that Azor Ahai WAS the child.


My argument against this Azor Ahai being the Lightbringer (which is different than what you said earlier) AND the child (of whom?) theory is based on two things. Why is Azor Ahai, in your words a baby, forging three swords and killing lions and wives? Why would the world praise a psychopathic baby, they don't even use ration in their murdering. And, ignoring that confusion, if Lightbringer is a child, say the child of Azor Ahai, what makes that child the savior of the world and destroyer of the Great Other, and why is his father praised for his son's actions?

LancelotLoire wrote:Your argument mostly lays on the fact that the Valyrians would have been creating Valyrian steel to combat the Others. So tell me this extremely important bit of information you've seem to forgotten. How did the Valyrians come across the Others? The Others vanished not long after the long night ended. Not to mention have the Others ever been in Essos to begin with? Then there is also the issue that the Valyrian Peninsula is hot. I don't think the Others could even survive on Valyria from the heat of the Volcanoes.


No, that's not my argument. I recognize Azor Ahai as an Asshai'i, at least under the name of Azor Ahai. He could have been Hyrkoon from Hyrkoon, or Yin Tar from YiTi, but assuming he was really an Asshai'i, I believe that Azor Ahai's process of creating Lightbringer became the first incarnation of the process the Valyrians used to craft their steel. I likely suggested Azor Ahai being Valyrian as a possibility on this thread, but that's because I like to start conversation and theory discussion. It's more likely that Azor Ahai existed before the Valyrians were prominent, and after their rise as Dragonlords and their beginnings in the developments of their great cities did they say "hey, let's get some bomb ass weapons," looking to the world for suggestions, eventually getting tipped off by some blood sorcerers or something. It's the blood magic of Lightbringer and thus Valyrian steel that made both swords both extremely powerful as ordinary weapons, and uniquely capable of destroying white walkers.

Man, this is not the thread I expected this to be. Anyone got any neat ideas for Valyrian blades? :lol:
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Lord Audiate
 
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Re: Where's Westeros's Valyrian steel? - Share your ideas

PostPosted by LancelotLoire » Mon Nov 14, 2016 10:19

Spoiler: show
Lord Audiate wrote:
LancelotLoire wrote:Lets say that Lightbringer is a sword for this argument real quick. The sword radiated heat and was illuminated. No valyrian sword has that property. There is also no mention of the sword being indestructible. So what we have here is 2 things. A sword that has properties that Valyrian swords DON'T have, and a sword that DOESN'T have the properties of Valyrian swords.


You're acting now as if metaphors are non-applicable when your whole conception theory was built on metaphors. Out of any people in the known world, Valyrians were/are the most associated with fire--their lands had fourteen volcanoes (fifteen including Dragonstone), they rode giant beasts that spit fire and are known to hatch in fire (or not, in situations of Aegon V at Summerhall), the lands they had most influence over and were closest to them almost unanimously worship the Lord of Light, and they mostly all died in fire. In regards to the durability, since when is the lack of detail the equivalent to detail opposing connection? The Lightbringer was said to be made of fire, but I still argue that it's early Valyrian steel. Fire isn't necessarily "destructible," in fact, it's known for doing pretty much nothing but the destroying.

Actually I am implying that allegorical symbolism was used, not metaphors. Nothing really to argue over the Valyrians and flame thing except to point out that Asshai is also well known for fire magics. Although anything from an Asshai source should be taken with a grain of salt as they are liars. As for the lands most associated with Valyria, they are known actually for multiple various religions. This is because the Valyrians allowed them to retain their religions, a quote for you from world book; "They looked upon priests and temples as relics of a more primitive time, though useful for placating “slaves, savages, and the poor” with promises of a better life to come. Moreover, a multiplicity of gods helped to keep their subjects divided and lessened the chances of their uniting under the banner of a single faith to overthrow their overlords. Religious tolerance was to them a means of keeping the peace in the Lands of the Long Summer".


Spoiler: show
Lord Audiate wrote:
LancelotLoire wrote:Qohori blacksmiths don't use blood magic in reforging Valyrian swords thats I'm aware of. Seeing as how Tobho Mott would most likely have been arrested after reforging Ice. Tywin would have let him complete the work but most likely would have arrested him after the work was done. That's the kind of person he is.


As for the Qohori, specifically Tobho Mott, who's to say he didn't use blood magic? Varys had been doing a lot of things under Tywin's nose, hell, so had his children. Tobho Mott told Tywin that "he tried to color the swords the crimson of House Lannister, but despite his spells the steel darkened to grey and red patterns." Spells are spells, and mostly all spells have to do with blood, as discussed on the first page of the thread, but who's to say for sure but GRRM. However, this is something of interesting note, which I posted a few posts back, but you clearly seemed to have missed that and posted anyway.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Pol

It's a very small detail in the collectiveness of World of Ice and Fire, and for good reason. Anyway, there's your cold, hard hint.

The most important part here is to remember that Tywin was a bit of an egotistical moron. He most likely would not have allowed the reforging to take place outside of his own or somebody he found loyal to hims view. It is extremely likely that the blacksmith was watched over in some way the entire time to ensure that the valyrian steel wasn't stolen. He also most likely was given special accomodations closeby and remained "alone" for the entire process.

As for the bit of Pol, yes I did read it. I'm getting a little tired of you implying I don't read posts. I've censored myself here because my first thought was to reply with a lot of vulgarity.

I find it more than likely that the Qohori story is the truthful one. He was publically whipped three times, and then had his hands chopped off for stealing. "Oh no, I didn't steal anything. I discovered that they were using blood sacrifice in an attempt to produce steel equal to valyrian steel". That reaks of somebody being bitter about having his hands chopped off for stealing.

Spoiler: show
Lord Audiate wrote:
LancelotLoire wrote:The whole story of Azor Ahai has the feel of a creation story to it. You are saying that it doesn't seem likely that they'd conceive a child and then wait the 9 months for it to be born. But it's okay for you that he'd spend half a year forging a sword while sitting on his thumb?


The reason I find it absurd to wait around for a child rather than the perfect sword is the desperation people would have had during the Long Night, which is when Azor Ahai had lived. He would surely be terrified, trying hard to craft the perfect sword that would destroy the Great Other, not horny as fuck because of it and eager to squirt a baby into his wife and see it grow up a couple months or years until the others come to kill all three of them. Now THAT sounds ridiculous. The chief difference is, pregnancy to birth is a long wait, while crafting weapons is a stressful process when your life is dependent on it and you know your enemies aren't effected by normal swords.

It's important to consider the forging process of Lightbringer. The first time he tempered it, he used water (frozen in the Long Night), which broke it. He then tried a lion, and here's where it splits. One possibility is that he dabbled with blood magic, knowing it could save him and his wife, who could have been alone together at that point, so to save his wife he tried the sacrific/ritual/whatever on a lion, and it wasn't good enough, so it broke. Another possibility is that the lion eludes to an Other, as does the Lion of Night to the Great Other. Azor Ahai did live in Asshai, which isn't too far from YiTi, where that story is chiefly practiced. Lastly, he used his wife for the process, another human, which finally worked, creating Lightbringer.

Ugh seriously? Okay then lets debunk this real fast. The Long night lasted a LONG time. There I said it! I didn't think I was going to have to say it again. The Long night lasted a very very very long time. This wasn't just an "Omg the suns vanished lets have sex". It's years go by and people carry on living, surviving, procreating. Also we have absolutely no idea where this Azor Ahai lived. It could have been in Asshai, but it also could have been in Valyria, Hyrkoon, Nefer, Yi Ti, Andalos, along the Rhoyne, or anywhere on the continent. The name is supposed to have come from Asshai but then again, we also don't know what his actual name was. Azor Ahai could just be Asshain for "Great Hero".

I am also not implying that Azor Ahai to defeat the others fucked his wife and produced a child. I am implying that the child conceived may be Azor Ahai and that he led his people to salvation. Hell you could even twist it into a valyrian parralel and say that he led his people to salvation by bringing them to the Valyrian peninsula. Where warmth (volcanic heat) and light would be found.

Spoiler: show
Lord Audiate wrote:
LancelotLoire wrote:I never said that Azor Ahai was going around flailing an infant child at white walkers. That is just freaking ludicrous. The long night was supposed to have lasted for a full generation. I'm saying that Azor Ahai = Lightbringer. And that story about the sword isn't that Azor Ahai sired a child with that woman. But that Azor Ahai WAS the child.


My argument against this Azor Ahai being the Lightbringer (which is different than what you said earlier) AND the child (of whom?) theory is based on two things. Why is Azor Ahai, in your words a baby, forging three swords and killing lions and wives? Why would the world praise a psychopathic baby, they don't even use ration in their murdering. And, ignoring that confusion, if Lightbringer is a child, say the child of Azor Ahai, what makes that child the savior of the world and destroyer of the Great Other, and why is his father praised for his son's actions?

Like I said before, the long night lasted a LONG time. This wasn't just 1-2 years, this could conceivably have been 20-40 years long of a night. Long enough for a baby to grow into a man never having seen the light of day. I also never said nor implied he forged anything, killed any lions, or killed his wife. Nor am I saying that he is the child of Azor Ahai. Nor has it ever been said that Azor Ahai destroyed the Great Other.

"Prophecy is like a half-trained mule. It looks as though it might be useful, but the moment you trust in it, it kicks you in the head" a useful quote yes.

Spoiler: show
Lord Audiate wrote:
LancelotLoire wrote:Your argument mostly lays on the fact that the Valyrians would have been creating Valyrian steel to combat the Others. So tell me this extremely important bit of information you've seem to forgotten. How did the Valyrians come across the Others? The Others vanished not long after the long night ended. Not to mention have the Others ever been in Essos to begin with? Then there is also the issue that the Valyrian Peninsula is hot. I don't think the Others could even survive on Valyria from the heat of the Volcanoes.


No, that's not my argument. I recognize Azor Ahai as an Asshai'i, at least under the name of Azor Ahai. He could have been Hyrkoon from Hyrkoon, or Yin Tar from YiTi, but assuming he was really an Asshai'i, I believe that Azor Ahai's process of creating Lightbringer became the first incarnation of the process the Valyrians used to craft their steel. I likely suggested Azor Ahai being Valyrian as a possibility on this thread, but that's because I like to start conversation and theory discussion. It's more likely that Azor Ahai existed before the Valyrians were prominent, and after their rise as Dragonlords and their beginnings in the developments of their great cities did they say "hey, let's get some bomb ass weapons," looking to the world for suggestions, eventually getting tipped off by some blood sorcerers or something. It's the blood magic of Lightbringer and thus Valyrian steel that made both swords both extremely powerful as ordinary weapons, and uniquely capable of destroying white walkers.

Man, this is not the thread I expected this to be. Anyone got any neat ideas for Valyrian blades? :lol:

This is something I mentioned a bit further up, but thought would rehash here because it fits rather well "Hell you could even twist it into a valyrian parralel and say that he led his people to salvation by bringing them to the Valyrian peninsula. Where warmth (volcanic heat) and light would be found."
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