Where's Westeros's Valyrian steel? - Share your ideas

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Where's Westeros's Valyrian steel? - Share your ideas

PostPosted by Lord Audiate » Thu Oct 20, 2016 02:07

This thread is in two parts: a discussion, and another discussion. Please read fully.

In The World of Ice and Fire, there's a book written by a Maester called Inventories, which mentions that there are two-hundred and twenty-seven Valyrian steel blades in Westeros. Given the specifics of this statement, where do you think these swords are? As we currently know, there were about thirteen named Valyrian steel swords in Westeros before the reforging of Ice. So, where are those other ~214 Valyrian steel blades? Do way more noble houses own Valyrian steel and we just don't know about it? It's implied implicitly and explicitly in multiple instances that Valyrian steel is pretty rare, so perhaps not. Not every noble house should own one. The Lannisters are a good example: after they lost Brightroar, they never had another sword until they plucked one off a dead man. So do landless knights own most of these blades? Hedge knights? Could the majority just be knives that are more for status than for military use? What do you guys think?

The second part of this thread is a bit of a request. I'm putting together a fan book that details the "majority" of the known Valyrian blades, their histories, and their whereabouts, if known. It's going to be written in the POV of a maester somewhere around the Dance of the Dragons, specifically to portray Dalton Greyjoy as the "current" owner of Nightfall, or, alternatively, after the Dance of the Dragons to explain why the sword may have passed to House Harlaw. However, not much work can be done on it until I actually have things together to write about, and I'm not making outstanding progress on my own. My request of you here is to help theorize on some of these blades and who may own a sword, or had owned one at some point. Think of it as the AAR contest; who owned a sword, who were they, what was the sword called and like, and what the relevance of both were. I'm just looking for ideas here, and its not a contest where you can only submit one idea or anything, just go nuts! And feel free to expand on other ideas already said, the more details to work with the better, in my opinion. I'll probably have to strip a lot of the stuff down so it's best to have a variety of things to work with, if that makes sense. Thanks!
Last edited by Lord Audiate on Thu Oct 20, 2016 18:51, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Valyrian Steel of Westeros... where is it?

PostPosted by Soulbourne » Thu Oct 20, 2016 08:42

Could be knives, it could include a documentation of "Lost" blades and their claimants. Could be that the maesters own a few as part of their own collection. Could be many ended up in essos. It's unlikely that many minor families have valyrian steel-at least that's known steel, since it's value would make them major targets. Could be that maybe there were more blades shipped over from the doom than originally thought as part of a targaryen stockpile, and those have over time since been lost. Some may of been unsuccessfully reforged and lost their qualities as valyrian steel. Or maybe theon's armor wasn't always armor.
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Re: Valyrian Steel of Westeros... where is it?

PostPosted by Lord Audiate » Thu Oct 20, 2016 14:35

By Theon's armor you mean Euron's, right? Pretty fair assumptions, though I've personally always thought of Valyrian steel as something hard to hide for long, in that if one person finds it, the realm will soon hear about it. Many houses we know of are proud of owning one and the ones who have lost theirs often don't speak of losing them much, given that we only hear about Brightroar once in the books through Tyrion (I think) who hardly considers himself a Lannister at times.
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Re: Valyrian Steel of Westeros... where is it?

PostPosted by Soulbourne » Thu Oct 20, 2016 17:02

Yes, euron. Not the best with names. Also, generally you brag about it assuming that bragging doesn't make every bandit and thief in the realm target your unguarded cottage for a little bloodshed and looting the biggest prize ever. Alongside that, as you said, most houses don't admit they lost theres, so if the greyjoys have spent a few less than legitimate raids on more minor houses over the centuries to collect swords as trophies, I doubt they'd openly admit to having reaved some swords away from iron throne citizens because dealing with the backlash of both honorable people wanting to return the blade and not so honorable houses wanting their own family heirloom would be an undue pain. This also means hiding the evidence as armor when enough is collected is also a very good method.

Also, even if most of the blades are fairly common knowledge, it's not like we've heard every house in westeros go at length into it's honorifics and family story. While characters in source may be able to go "Ah, yes the old <Family> and their <Valyrian steel weapon>." we have yet to hear about either as readers.
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Re: Valyrian Steel of Westeros... where is it?

PostPosted by Lord Audiate » Thu Oct 20, 2016 17:52

A lot of Ironborn have seemed pretty open about their Valyrian steel, namely Harlaw with Nightfall and Drumm with Red Rain, which supposedly once belonged to House Reyne. We don't know of much backlash as a result of that. In the case of Euron's armor, I'm convinced he really did go to Valyria and obtained it himself, not so much for the gold or iron price, but the stumbled-into-an-old-set-of-armor price. That said, he very easily could have been searching for it. I kind of like the theory that House Royce's armor is Valyrian, or at least some kind of recreation.

It's just a bit bizarre to me that there's limited knowledge on the few hundred houses of Westeros, but there's some 227 blades (specifically blades, not including anything that isn't strictly a blade) in Westeros alone, if Inventories is supposed to be accurate. Either many are smaller blades, like the dagger with several owners (namely Baelish), or there's plenty of swords we don't know about/plenty of people outside of great houses that own them.

This is a bit unrelated, but personally I like the theory that Lightbringer is essentially the first Valyrian steel sword, and that all magic in the world is more or less the same, namely blood and fire magic (reminiscent of the Targaryen words?), and that Valyrian steel is made via blood magic, as hinted in the legend of Azor Ahai and Lightbringer, where Azor Ahai killed his wife to create Lightbringer. And we know that Valyrian steel destroys Others like nothing else quite can--perhaps Obsidian is the result of some fire magic but doesn't have the strength of blood magic, and perhaps Azor Ahai was dabbling with Obsidian but the blood part was crucial to finishing the steel. It sort of ties in with the fall of the Great Other and the rise of Valyria some time later, in that the light came to save the world from darkness and ever since there's been dragons running around. It's a theory I like a lot because of all the subtle supporting evidence, like Qohor being the 'City of Sorcerers' where blood magic is practiced regularly, and it's coincidentally Qohor where many smiths claim they can reforge Valyrian steel. Hopefully this isn't too much rambling and enough theorizing to pass as something other than madman talk, because I thought it was worth mentioning.
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Re: Valyrian Steel of Westeros... where is it?

PostPosted by Soulbourne » Thu Oct 20, 2016 18:04

Water magic of the rhoyne. Ice magic of the others. Shadow magic of the shadowbinders. Whatever the chidren of the forest use. I believe as I said elsewhere planetos has a history of a primal-high-low magic curve. Where early on magic was vast and plentiful, but untamed, the days of the first long night and all of that good fun when the entire planet heaved with an untamed power. It was mastered after that in a scholarly form with the rise of various magician traditions and empires of magic such as valyria, which eventually dwindled and fell and saw the current "Low magic" setting eventually arise, where magic is potent but relatively rare compared to the old myths.

In general I believe that chances are valyrian steel is a special process, using both incredibly high temps(Perhaps first achieved in valyria with dragonfire) to purify and temper the blade with magic woven in, quite possibly blood magic which gets incredibly mass sacrifice pit very fast to properly forge. I believe that a large portion of the base is mundane ingredients though, as per the ability for it to be reforged without sacrificing a thousand slaves or such. The woven magic inside of it is litterally woven into it's fundamental structure, and the smiths of qohor simply know how to avoid breaking both during reshaping. While good steel can be smelted and reforged, some mixes and alloys if not properly set and retempered become brittle piles of slag afterwards, and I believe that's the issue here-the finishing steps more than anything.

Also, when it specifies "Blade" I believe it means any sharpened meta object, including axes and such.
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Re: Valyrian Steel of Westeros... where is it?

PostPosted by Lord Audiate » Thu Oct 20, 2016 19:00

Fair points. As for magic, I specifically meant the majority of magic around during the setting of the books. Fire magic, blood magic, and death magic, which ties into blood magic, seems to make up the basis for the majority of what people currently have access to. It's hard to say exactly how Valyrian steel is crafted, though sacrifice does make sense. I like to think of the Faceless Men as doing something oddly similar. People often give up their own lives as payment for the Faceless Men to kill a specific target. Perhaps their face-changing abilities stems from their 'sacrifices.' I assume that the most we'll know as an accurate depiction of the process of crafting Valyrian steel, at least early on in the Freehold's history, is the creation of Lightbringer, when the sword was already made expertly well, potentially using dragonfire or potentially not, before being used in a sacrificial way. However, the only way that this makes any sense is if the sword was initially crafted in some unique way, and/or if the sacrifice made was someone that the wielder loved, like in the situation of Lightbringer. Valyrian steel is definitely something very magical, and I wouldn't expect it to be very similar to the forging of regular steel, but at the moment we can only speculate on how it might have been done until GRRM elaborates on it, if he ever does. I recall him saying something about writing in a pre-Doom Valyria setting, but the chances of that ever happening are realistically pretty low, I'd imagine. And yes, I'd assume axes are included in the pretty broad 'blades' claim, but this doesn't necessarily mean things like maces, warhammers, or spears, should those exist in the world. We do know of an arakh made of Valyrian steel, most likely reforged at some point, but I personally don't know the practicality of blunt weapons being made of Valyrian steel, other them being lighter and thus more wieldy, but that also means a hit would be less of a blow. As for spears, I honestly have no idea how quickly spears normally dull out, but potentially Valyrian steel spears could exist.

I changed the thread name to better portray the topic.
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Re: Where's Westeros's Valyrian steel? - Share your ideas

PostPosted by Soulbourne » Thu Oct 20, 2016 22:45

Yes, the magic shown so far in the books is centered around fire and blood, with other types mostly being legend. That said, some types were wiped out fairly hard by the freehold and others exists in places that are legendary and rumors for westeros.

He has stated that valyrian steel is loosely based on the idea of damascus, which we know was part forging process part material. The base ingredient being the old wootz steel from india(Yes, there is totally a steel called wootz, dating as far back as alexander the great. I love that fact), which was reforged and refined into a more complex blade, most famously by the smiths of damascus though their apprentices did spread all over europe as the years went on bringing the traditions needed until the 1800s when we lost the technique as "Obselete". Damascus steel was an example of an advanced forging technique using materials that were foriegn and mysterious to even the smiths but which was able to be refined into a semi-mythic quality steel. Due to the nature of it actually reforging would of been hard without propper knowledge to maintain the special structure of the alloy on the molecular level that gave it it's pattern and strength, so is a good example. The difference being that the valyrian steel has magic woven in as well, the specifics of which isn't entirely known but which is something a reforger needs to handle with care to not break down.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1225

Now, with all that in mind, he specifies magic is key and valyrians did like their blood and fire magic. Love also is a traditional primal magic so chances are using someone close to you is a good source of magic. But the lore seems to favor the blood of nobility and kings too. While I've never seen him specify, often times when blood of highborne is potent for magic, it basically means that they have luck or god blessings. A king succeeds not by his merit alone but by the forces of the universe alligning to him and his family. If you can capture and sacrifice such an individual you can harvest this power from their blood for your own purposes. Lower ranking people have some but less power than kings. It's basically taking the energy of fate and forcibly ripping it from them for your own needs. I believe that's the ultimate purpose of the blood of kings power.
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Re: Where's Westeros's Valyrian steel? - Share your ideas

PostPosted by Mirith » Fri Oct 21, 2016 01:20

About mentioned water magic of Rhoyne.
This magic is mainly for now forgotten. But, hell, it was really powerful tool. Most ultimate magic, besides the valyrian magic.
Ability to flood cities, let unfertile land prosper, greenseer like visions , whispers.
Offensive and defensive spells.

But is water magic truly 100% original magic unlike others? I think not. You see, in Rhoynish wars many battles were fought around Rhoyne itself. Land was soaked with blood, and river drowning in blood.
It may be possible to cast hybrid water-blood spells, if sacrifice is made.
Prince Garin saw his people slaughtered, their blood was in the river... So many, that he flooded area and created Sorrows + Greyscale.

(Fun off topic about Greyscale. People of Westeros are not hesitant to keep infected in their realms. But... Is it possible , that Greyscale makes infected immortal? Turns 95% into savages, but making them immortal.
And... If Shrouded lord is truly Gavin the Great, is coincidence all stuff with attacking Shy Maid and Aegon?
And also Shireen being target of Greyscale? In he end... Baratheons have little drip of vallyrian blood)
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Re: Where's Westeros's Valyrian steel? - Share your ideas

PostPosted by Lord Audiate » Fri Oct 21, 2016 16:07

Pretty good point, I forgot about the slaughter in Rhoyne. The "spells" that applied before the wars, like prospering land and having visions, could easily just be the river turning an otherwise fairly dry land fertile, or they had rituals to achieve that. This is definitely getting off topic, but I wouldn't be surprised if the Shrouded Lord is Gavin the Great, but I hadn't considered your Shy Maid idea before. Dagger Lake is known for its pirates, and thus a lot probably sail through the Sorrows, which means they probably aren't often attacked since it would sort of compromise their way of life, unless they're exclusively raiding upriver (if upriver is towards the mountainous Qohori and Norvoshi areas), which seems fairly limited. If the Shy Maid crew was "special" because of Aegon's blood, and as long as Aegon does have Targaryen or Blackfyre blood and thus Valyrian blood, that could definitely suggest the Shrouded Lord is at least an original Rhoynar. Greyscale ferals definitely seem immortal, unless there's been a constant addition of people infected with Greyscale introduced into the Sorrows, so that's definitely possible.

On the topic of Valyrian blood, I think it's possible that Valyrian blood is crucial to the forging of Valyrian steel. If Azor Ahai was Valyrian, anyway, he would probably have been married to another Valyrian, simply because of what Valyria was at the time: pretty small and disconnected from the world. This is supported by the theory that king's blood = Valyrian blood, since all kings in Westeros were descended from Valyrians (Targaryens obviously and Baratheons through Orys Baratheon). So perhaps there is some magical property to Valyrian blood.
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Re: Where's Westeros's Valyrian steel? - Share your ideas

PostPosted by Mirith » Fri Oct 21, 2016 16:42

Well, if im correct, Azor ahai wasnt Valyrian. He was from Bone mountains. Aka Samablabla (too complicated names)
Their men are bred to be perfect. But maybe his wife was valyrian.

And about Shrouded lord... Maybe he's really Garin. Why? Because corsair from Basilisk isles could hardly give vision/dream to Tirion, when he fell into Rhoyne. And while Lemore was saving him, he had a dream. Most cool parts of books are little, more insignificant parts.
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Re: Where's Westeros's Valyrian steel? - Share your ideas

PostPosted by Lord Audiate » Fri Oct 21, 2016 17:57

Almost every culture has an Azor Ahai, and take some claim to them being from their lands. It's often believed that he's from Asshai, but who's really to say, since he's known by many names from many lands. Warrior/Son of Light/Fire seems to be the name given by R'hllor followers, but the other names he's known by, Hyrkoon the Hero, Yin Tar, Neferion, Eldric Shadowchaser, and whatever else he might be konwn as, are from all over. Hyrkoon, Yi Ti, Nefer/N'ghai, possibly even Andalos with Eldric, claim that the legendary hero who wielded a sword of fire came from their lands. It's hard to say, but Lightbringer shares a lot of possible similarities with Valyrian steel, namely that they're both known for essentially deleting Others on contact.

I'm surprised people don't talk about this more often. After the Long Night, at some unspecified point, came the rise of Valyria, which probably has the most relation to fire out of any other nation. They rode dragons, their lands eventually became prominently R'hllor, the religion of fire, there were fourteen of the fifteen known volcanoes right on their peninsula--they also owned the fifteenth and built a castle on it. Their rising as a prominent world power practically bought the light during the Long Night--this is a side crackpot idea, but perhaps Azor Ahai is just the personification of Valyria, like Columbia with the US or Roma with Rome. Regardless, though, only 400 years (basically right on the dot) after the Doom of Valyria was the return of the Others, which had become mythical in that no one had dealt with them in some 1,000 Lord Commanders' terms (it gets hazy around then, I think they've been gone for longer, but I forget/am not sure). To me it seems like the presence of Valyria, its swords, its dragons, and possibly its people, kept away the Others and the Long Night. GRRM has referenced Lovecraft's work in city names and such, but I like the idea that he's gone a step further with Lovecraftian influence and portrayed Lovecraftian gods in his own works.

This is getting extremely off topic, but there's an ongoing theory (one that I thought on a lot) that Cthulhu and Hastur, step-brothers and worst enemies (AEGOR AND BRYNDEN :o ) are both secretly influencing the world and battling it out. The theory generally goes that ASOIAF's Cthulhu is residing in Stygai in Asshai, which is why Asshai has so many dark sorcerers there: Melisandre mentioned that there are places in the world that magic is more powerful, more on that in a bit. When Bran saw the world in his visions, if I remember correctly, he saw Asshai, then the lands north of it, and north if it, and north of it, until he saw what was basically the Land of Always Winter, and I'm pretty sure that was the end of the vision. So, essentially, he saw what was south of where he was, then far, far east of that, and then north again, and that connected with where he was. So, perhaps Asshai and North of the Wall aren't very far after all. If you've noticed in the mod, White Walker invasions will happen in Yi Ti, which is sort of canon, and the Five Forts are kind of protecting Yi Ti similarly to the Wall in Westeros. So, if Asshai and the Land of Always Winter is sort of connected, ASOIAF's Cthulhu could essentially be the "god of cold," in a simple sense. And if Cthulhu and Hastur are opposites, sort of tug-of-warring via the world, ASOIAF's Hastur would naturally be in Valyria, which had its greatest period of activity when the Others were gone. Now, my take on the theory goes even more nonsensical. I personally believe that, if this theory is at all on track, that ASOIAF's Cthulhu had other Others. Asshai is described as a city basically too big to sustain, containing millions and millions of citizens, and only a small portion of the city is actually being used for anything. Asshai is also described as being made primarily of oily black stone, which is something we see all over: the Seastone Chair, the Toads in the Isle of Toads, Yeen, even (sort of) at Battle Isle and the Five Forts, but those could be different. The two prominent things to keep in mind though are the Seastone Chair and Isle of Toads. The Seastone Chair is pretty simple: it's in the shape of a kraken and it washed up on the shores of the Iron Islands. In the case of the Isle of Toads, however, the population of the island, who are basically a fish people, claim their descendance from the people who built the toads. So, in theory, they also descended from the people who built Asshai, and Yeen, which implies both cities were part of the same nation, which also reached not far from the Iron Islands. Which is weird, right? How would a throne end up that far away? In A Feast for Crows, Dick Crabb warns Brienne and Podrick to avoid the squishers of Crackclaw Point. In the Prologue of A Clash of Kings(?), Patchface is described as being witty, before drowning, and essentially turning super creepy, and he spends a lot of his time talking about bringing Shireen to the sea. In the Thousand Islands, the almost fish-like people there, who are oddly terrified of the water, worship and make sacrifice to fish-headed gods, who are carved into the stone under the water, which has suggested to a civilization submerged in water. I, however, disagree. My wingnut theory is that there was once a great empire of fish people, "squishers," who lived from Asshai to Yeen to the Sunset Sea, even to the Thousand Isles up north. Perhaps, given the situations of Yeen and the Thousand Islands, civilization there wasn't submerged and ruined, but instead once submerged much more, but the water had since gone down (potentially connected with the Children of the Forest smashing the Arm of Dorne and Neck of Westeros, flooding both). The connection with Patchface could be that he became a servant of ASOIAF's Cthulhu (the Drowned God?) and tried to get the dragonblood of Shireen for some dark ritual. So, if this is the case, it's possible that ASOIAF's Cthulhu, which lives in Stygai (named after Robert Howard's Stygia, which is just a generally pretty sinister place), once had an amphibious empire of followers, who primarily huddled around him in Asshai, but something had happened (perhaps CotF unintentionally screwing them over), and they had since gone into seclusion. This theory also kind of explains the question of how Asshai managed to be so big, because the fish people could have access to ocean life that is otherwise impossible to fish for. With the rise of man in more inland areas like Yi Ti and Westeros, perhaps ASOIAF's Cthulhu had to gain new followers, and employed the Others. There's another theory out there that the Others were simply Children of the Forest who grew spiteful of man and made a dark pact to gain the powers of ice magic, which could have possibly been granted by this entity. On the flip side, ASOIAF's Hastur isn't as necessarily supported in details, but it's possible that it tried things like creating storms (Storm God? Eh?), but nothing quite worked, until the rise of Valyria/when Azor Ahai could defeat the Great Other. A minor detail that I really like as supporting "evidence" for this is that Valyria, before dragons, were simply shepherds, and Hastur is the "benign god of shepherds." Man, I feel crazy every time I dive back into this theory to explain it, because it's ridiculously expansive and yet has zero real impact on the actual story of ASOIAF, but damn is it cool.

Anyway, uh, swords! Yeah!
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Re: Where's Westeros's Valyrian steel? - Share your ideas

PostPosted by Mirith » Fri Oct 21, 2016 18:42

Man, I really like your way of thinking. Speculations and theories are probably best part of stories.
They stimulate the curious part of the human being, forcing to find proof, convince others.

Here's link to mentioned water race.
awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Deep_Ones
Anyway, yeah. I believe there's something more to the story.
And water is incredible part of it. In story, water has even bigger powers, rivaling fire.
Funny thing in GOT is whole good and bad view on characters. There's not good and bad, only motives.
One god wants ice melted, but if ice melts, how it can defeat water

And yeah, swords
I think maesters own more then 100 of them. Maesters are really shady and mysterious figures.
And they know - men are men. They will declare wars, slaughter each other.
Nevertheless, such men need scholars.
Such scholars have records of everything. Powerful dynasty goes extinct, and who's the most close? Maester.
Who can take the sword? Maester.
Also... There can be even connection between Citadel and Andalos.
Swords, most valuable artifacts are quite wanted thing. If oldtown is looted, looter gains everything... But, if valuables are sent to Andalos...
You see, most people even dont know about Andalos. Insignificant, little kingdom.
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Re: Where's Westeros's Valyrian steel? - Share your ideas

PostPosted by Lord Audiate » Fri Oct 21, 2016 20:51

Oh, wow, I knew about the Deep Ones but I had no idea there was a canonical reference between the Seastone Chair, Battle Island, and the squishers. Wow.

I've always been curious about the state of Andalos currently, since it's always been referred to, and an entire continent was populated by the Andals (and the First Men, but look at how drastically the culture changed when the Andals came--it's more Andal than First Men in about half of Westeros). But now, who's there? Who's in control? I would think Braavos, but that's an interesting theory that the Citadel is involved. Who's to say they don't both have a finger in that pie? There's certainly goodies left there, anyway, I doubt people would just leave it to the buzzards.

I was writing a book I scrapped a while ago that had a POV Maester who was mostly oblivious to the Citadel's scandals, but they were right under his nose. It didn't focus on that, though, and the main focus of the book was Valyria and the various struggles of mankind on an individual, personal level, but I gave up on it in favor of other ideas I had. A main story arch of it was the hidden relationship between Valyria and the Citadel, and it was basically a conglomeration of fan theories I've heard or came up with, including the reasoning behind Valyria's limited conquest. They had the means to conquer the world, so why didn't they? And why did they remain out of Westeros, until some hillbilly incestuous kid from their volcanic colony in Dragonstone conquered the world because of a lost agreement? A big issue writing it was settling for what theories would take precedence over others. Was it a mutual relation between the Maesters and Valyrians? The Maesters are noted as being possibly responsible for the death of dragons in Westeros, were they also involved in the Doom of Valyria? Do they prefer a unified Westeros, or a Westeros riddled with smaller lords and constant wars that they have Maesters/informants on both sides of? The Maesters believed that the Andals were threatened by Valyrian conquest in Essos so they came to Westeros, what exactly was the Citadel's feelings on that? They certainly are interesting players in the game.

I was reserving some half of the known blades to be in possession of the Citadel, subtly hinting that there's more to their ownership/safekeeping of them than just research, like showing the power of the Citadel to visitors by displaying a Valyrian dagger here or there in the halls, or simply hoarding them for some purpose.
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Re: Where's Westeros's Valyrian steel? - Share your ideas

PostPosted by Mirith » Fri Oct 21, 2016 22:38

1. Yep. On wiki is some very interesting lore, for instance this - awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Banefort
One of kings/lords being necromancer. Pretty cool.

About Valyrians and Westeros. Ask yourself - why would ever Valyrians consider conquering primitive race? They were too far - to hard to control, too much trouble for nothing
In world is single rule - once empire grows too big, it crumbles. And Valyrians were clever folk.
Essosi think of westerosi as barbarians.

And about pacts between valyrians and Maesters. Possible. Maesters are secretive and clever. And having their libraries burnt isnt way to go.
Aegon
's conquest was well, quite stupid. This guy had everything. He could have burnt Storms End. But naah, he decieded to conquer strangers... and worship seven. Basicly the most useless and stupid religion. Just guide to how live life.
He could have claimed Volantis.
Maesters killing dragons is possible. Not with swords, but advises. Or injecting eggs with poisions.
King without dragons will never threaten Citadel.
Sorry for short answers, I'm writing from my phone. Im glad for this topic. Fun and interesting.
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Re: Where's Westeros's Valyrian steel? - Share your ideas

PostPosted by Lord Audiate » Sat Oct 22, 2016 03:16

I've actually been obsessed with the Baneforts for a while, something about them is super ominous.

I suppose I was confused about Westerosi's lack of being at all touched because of the resources there. The Rock is known for the most gold and silver in the world, the Reach and Riverlands are known for extremely fertile lands (Riverlands only suffers because of constant war), but regardless of resources, Valyria owned many ports in places with pretty much no good resources, and mostly just produced goods, like Lys and Tyrosh. They could have easily set up ports there to increase their domination of trade. Oldtown and Lannisport and Gulltown and White Harbor and so on and so forth have been pretty prominent ports for a while then, I'm sure. I mean, they had a colony in Gogossos, an island not far from Sothoryos, where the Brindled Men live, and they're described as being hardly human at all. And not conquering someone because they're "barbarians" is against imperialism; the "colonization" of Africa was a thing because Europeans believed the natives there to be less than human, and they wanted Africa's resources. In fact, every colony in the world made by European powers during the eras when colonization was cool were in lands where the natives were thought of as less developed, intelligent, and sophisticated. It really screams out to me that there was some sort of agreement between Valyria and Westeros/the Citadel--an agreement forgotten by the Targaryens.

It's only really interesting to me because they could have owned everything; a dragonlord could have broken away with a couple of dragons and claimed entire empires as their own. We saw that happen with Aegon, and he had three relatively small dragons, perhaps excluding Balerion, though he might have been only of average size, it's hard to say. He did die of old age, so perhaps he reached his maximum growth, but who really knows. There seemed to be something unifying all Valyrians to the Freehold they had. I mean, as far as we know, not a single Valyrian tried to conquer their own land outside of the Freehold, which we surely would have heard about somehow. Perhaps there was way more civil strife than we know of, like in the Roman Republic/Empire, which limited growth. The Huns and barbaric European tribes surely inspired the Dothraki, and seemed to come in around the time of Valyria's fall, so perhaps Valyria's Doom was somewhat of a political/militaristic issue as well as magical/natural.

It's widely accepted that the Dragon Pit is the reason why the Dragons began their decline. It's cited that dragons need many miles of land to fly and look for food to properly grow, so it's fairly obvious that putting them in a giant cage would stunt them. However, who would be trusted to see over the royal family's dragons? Surely they can't be feeding them and caring for them all day. Peasants? Nah, they're too dimwitted in the eyes of royalty, and who would stop them from trying to mount them or kill one or two in spire? Surely the Maesters would be put in charge of seeing to the dragons, perhaps not directly, but they likely had more dragonlore than even the Targaryens. Whoever they had hired to feed them would likely not check what they were feeding to them. After all, they're giant, fire-breathing lizards with wings. Would they bother to check for rotting or poisoned food? Probably not. It's hard to say how it happened, but there's a lot of reason to believe the Maesters wanted the dragons dead, which could connect with some sort of agreement between then and Valyria.

It's also just possible that Valyria never got around to it. After all, they never even knew about Braavos, and easily would have made a lot of profit if they kept Braavos under their domain and control. Why they haven't conquered Ghis, however, is completely beyond me. They destroyed the city of Ghis completely, similarly to how Rome flattened Carthage, salted its fields, and never rebuilt on it. The only difference was that Rome took Carthage's land completely, while Valyria left the Ghiscari pretty much alone after bending them to their will--what are they going to do when their biggest city with some of their greatest accomplishments was just wiped off the map? I recall there was some slave-trade agreement going on that Valyria was very happy with, but why pay for slaves when you could simply take them? It's all pretty confusing to me.

I love the discussion so far too, even though it's completely off topic of what I planned this thread to be for. :lol:
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Re: Where's Westeros's Valyrian steel? - Share your ideas

PostPosted by Mirith » Sat Oct 22, 2016 09:38

Baneforts are awesome, brro. I totally get you, They were petty kings in Westerlands, they existed loooong before Lannistere were. And also First men, who were practicing necromancy.... sounds shady, Baneforts of old were more like Ironborn. And also... cool CoA :D

Dragon pit... is very likely. I know about this, but i think more, that dragons need more their natural habitat to live - Volcanoes. Yeah, yeah, in captivity they're weak Indeed, maesters could be caretakers of the dragons, who else could, except for Targs,
To be honest, i generally dislike Andals, Maesters and maybe whole of Westerors. Yeah, yeah.... knighthood and sh*t, but their lore is so unappealing.
They came from some kingdom, killed off Children and First men. Married widows, converted people to Seven / which is generally false religion. THE most false and silly religion. That's why I rarely play as Westerosi in CK. From my perspective:
Wildlings are great. They are pure, they deserve to be south of the Wall, because First men locked them there.
Northmen are not bad, keeping their traditions and culture still how it was.
Riverlands are crybabies. Boo war, boo everything destroyed. Instead of reinforcing structures, building efficent wallsm, they decided to do nothing.
Westerlands... are quite appealing.
Reach are craven farmers. Tyrells suck. Long live Gardeners.
Crownlands shoudnt have existed.
Iron islands are interesting indeed, just for their religion. Ironmen are different.
Dorne is my favorite. They are different, have rich lore. Rich culture. But... as other cultures, they were assimilated my Andals. Started to believe in false god, turning away from Mother Rhoyne. Yeah... and probably Mother RHoyne turned on them. Plus for final spit on Mother Rhoynes rivers > married destroyers of Rhoyne. Except for Greenblood.
Martells dont deserve to all upon Nymeria as their ancestor.
Vale... is underestimated. Probably because they live in fkin fortresses, they have superior cavalry and knights. But... still Andals. The very descendants of andals.
Stormlands... to be honest, rich in lore, but never cared so much of them.

Essos is better in every way.
Im kinda fun of Valyrians, but... Targs are dicks. Abandon people instead of warning. Aegon decides to conquer strangers and gets after some generations, what he deserves.
If i was in his place, I would burn down the Storms End and Storm king with it. Give Stormlands to Orys,
Target Braavos, burn it down. Slaves must know their place.
Target free cities, unite them. Take rule in Volantis, keep Valyrian line pure.

And yeah, swords..:D
Basically... one really fun fact is.. do you believe this Maester? :D
He could have lied.
We can also assume, that Valyrian swords are buried on battlegrounds. Lost in woods, taken by Ironmen, sunk in waters. Or destroyed by Lords trying to replicate valyrian steel.

Love this thread too :D. I like such discussions. And active topics.
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Re: Where's Westeros's Valyrian steel? - Share your ideas

PostPosted by LancelotLoire » Sat Oct 22, 2016 10:23

Okay I skipped over a large portion of the thread sooo to answer the original questions.. I don't believe anybody actually cares about valyrian knives or knives in general, so they likely wouldn't bother ever counting those.

House Stark(Ice) and Lannister(Brightroar) have known named swords, but I suspect all the other greatest houses had swords as well IE: Arryn, Martell, Gardner, Durrandon, Hoare, Greyjoy.
Other valyrian origin families also most likely had swords of their own as well, IE: Qoherys and Velaryon.
I also think the Reach most likely had the largest number of those. As it's not only a rich area but also well known for it's knightly traditions.


Now what happened to them.. I'm guessing there may be about 20-30 more remaining that belong to known named houses. Not going to include numbers, but the remaining are likely in the following places.
Locked away in cupboards of impoverished families (They were knightly one time but have dropped off).
Over grown in fields/forests/mountains where a battle or something took place.
Lost at Sea.
Lost to Essos or Stepstone Islands.
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Re: Where's Westeros's Valyrian steel? - Share your ideas

PostPosted by SinStar87 » Sat Oct 22, 2016 10:41

Isn't an early plot point dependent on someone knowing who owned a specific valy dagger? Just because they aren't named, doesn't mean they aren't important and maesters wouldn't count them as blades.
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Re: Where's Westeros's Valyrian steel? - Share your ideas

PostPosted by LancelotLoire » Sat Oct 22, 2016 15:07

I am not too interested in plot points as a way. Especially considering that they basically brought it to the original owner of the dagger.

As for a list, it said there are about 227 valyrian blades in Westeros and only a thousand or two left in the world. If they included knives in that list, do you believe that anybody in their right mind would bet a dagger on a tournament? Or just leave it in a chest for a stupid child to give to an assassin? Logic has to conclude just based off of the fluid movements of the dagger between people that the daggers are of incredibly low value and not included in the insanely small amount listed (227 for Westeros, thousand or two for rest of world).
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