Societies in AGOT

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Societies in AGOT

PostPosted by Pekay » Mon Dec 05, 2016 16:50

After todays dev diary for the upcoming 'Monks and Mystics' DLC, I wondered about possible societies/sects/guilds for the aGoT mod. I would expect some other mods like Elder Kings or Warhammer to benefit more from the new DLC. Nontheless there are some possibilities for this mod too, especially this link (http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Category:Organizations) should provide some gome ideas. Sadly most of them cover organizations that didn't last too long in the world of Westeros and Essos.

I don't really think that the mod will use the new mechanics for societies that are unaccessable for the player, like the Citadel or the Kingsguard. But these one should be possible:

  • Faceless Men (well, whether they - as former slaves - would accept lords as members is debatable)
  • Sorrowful Men
  • Alchemist's Guild
  • Kingswood Brotherhood (?)
  • Brotherhood without Banner (?)
  • Band of Nine (?)
  • Ancient Guild of Spicers (?)
  • Blacks/Greens (?)
  • The secret Targaryen supporters (Varys, Illyrio, ...?)

What do you think of these ideas and what are your own thoughts? Do you see any more possibilities?
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Societies in AGOT

PostPosted by ngppgn » Mon Dec 05, 2016 16:50

What do you devs and fans think about possible AGOT societies?

The citadel system could benefits from the ranks for maester, archmaester and grand maester, but the player would be unable to join, so there is a limit on that.

Maybe the faith militant could fit better?

Something related to the brotherhood without banners?

Knighthood could fit if one could make a society without a leader, with progression related to tournaments and such, perhaps?

Anu heretical cult that we knos of from the lore?
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Re: Societies in AGOT

PostPosted by blackninja9939 » Mon Dec 05, 2016 17:12

I have a few ideas in the same vein as both of yours.

Can't quite see how the brotherhood would work as a society as it is only active during one tiny period of history, same with the similar variations of it.

All societies need a leader as far as I can tell.

No heretical cults from the lore but I see no reason as to why they couldn't have existed so will probably include them anyway, will probably just make a game rule to turn them off if people want.

The problem is there are not really many longstanding societies in the lore and those that did exist did not generally have lords join them.

Also merged the two MnM topics to keep all of them in one place
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Re: Societies in AGOT

PostPosted by tirion1987 » Mon Dec 05, 2016 18:36

Warlocks and Shadowbinders might be better off being reworked into Societies instead of religions, for one (Melisandre being both a Red Priestess and a Shadowbinder would make more sense, currently it sounds like someone being both a rabbi and an imam).

Citadel should be accessible for landed characters, for "lay brother" status equivalent levels, Oberyn forging a few links there didn't disinherit him. For a secret one, there is the Maester conspiracy against magic.

Ironborn could be reworked to have two open societies, Old Way (reaving, drowning, salt wives, iron price) and New Way (trade bonuses, sympathy for Westerosi, gold price), and a herestical secret one based on this guy's beliefs: http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Harmund_II_Hoare.

Volantene Tiger and Elephant party could be societies.

Based on what I've seen, merchant guilds and trading companies could be based on the society "engine", spending Influence for coin or attributes makes more sense than that vanilla picture about summoning a familiar (which somehow gives attributes) for dark power :P Also comes with the added benefit of countering the huge "rival republic" opinion penalty.
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Re: Societies in AGOT

PostPosted by ngppgn » Mon Dec 05, 2016 19:50

Yeah, I too can see guilds or similar cross-realm merchant associations.

What about one associated with the Iron Bank? A ruler could become an associate of the bank by having debts and other financial relationships, and gain "credit" a.k.a society points by paying duly and making contributions to the bank.

Missions could include connecting the bank to other rulers, embargoing and generally warring realms who failed to pay the bank back.

Powers could include making the bank support a relative claim on another character's title, forgive part of a debt, and making the bank deny debts to another realm and making the bank help brokering a NAP, for example.
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Re: Societies in AGOT

PostPosted by Enriador » Tue Dec 06, 2016 03:00

I really liked the above ideas. In my humble opinion:

1) Volantis' party system could work nicely. The current system is too cluttered.
2) The Citadel should be avaliable for rulers too, even if only as novices or acolytes.
3) Warlocks/Shadowbinders would work great as well, just like the Assassin's guilds.
4) Depending on how moddable it is, the Kingsguard can became an Open, yet-unavaliable Society.
5) The Faith Militant/Alchemist's Guild would also fit great.

I also propose making the Faith as a whole an Open Society. King Baelor was also a septon, after all.
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Re: Societies in AGOT

PostPosted by blackninja9939 » Tue Dec 06, 2016 15:52

Enriador wrote:I really liked the above ideas. In my humble opinion:

1) Volantis' party system could work nicely. The current system is too cluttered.
2) The Citadel should be avaliable for rulers too, even if only as novices or acolytes.
3) Warlocks/Shadowbinders would work great as well, just like the Assassin's guilds.
4) Depending on how moddable it is, the Kingsguard can became an Open, yet-unavaliable Society.
5) The Faith Militant/Alchemist's Guild would also fit great.

I also propose making the Faith as a whole an Open Society. King Baelor was also a septon, after all.

1) There are two traits, hardly that cluttered
2) Being a novice or acolyte is someone training to be a Maester, rulers were not allowed to do that
3) That makes little sense, the Warlocks and Shadowbinders are not a collection of like minded rulers but religious like organisations with magic
4) Would be totally superfluous
5) Those two are on the list :D
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Re: Societies in AGOT

PostPosted by Pekay » Tue Dec 06, 2016 17:49

I really like the idea of the Iron Bank of Braavos. Who knows, perhaps it is ruled by some rich essosi lords?

I don't know whether it is a good idea, but how about the Three-eyed crow and the Children of the Forest? They are a secret society after all and a major force for upcoming events.
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Re: Societies in AGOT

PostPosted by blackninja9939 » Tue Dec 06, 2016 18:23

Pekay wrote:I really like the idea of the Iron Bank of Braavos. Who knows, perhaps it is ruled by some rich essosi lords?

I don't know whether it is a good idea, but how about the Three-eyed crow and the Children of the Forest? They are a secret society after all and a major force for upcoming events.

I feel like I need to point out to everyone that a secret society made up of like 10 people or those that would only be made up of courtiers (or both in some cases) are not ideas that the society system in game would be useful for.
So making the Kingsguard and Three Eyed Crow etc a society would serve no purpose with the system at all as they have limited members and no playable characters could ever join.
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Re: Societies in AGOT

PostPosted by Enriador » Wed Dec 07, 2016 16:16

blackninja9939 wrote:
Enriador wrote:I really liked the above ideas. In my humble opinion:

1) Volantis' party system could work nicely. The current system is too cluttered.
2) The Citadel should be avaliable for rulers too, even if only as novices or acolytes.
3) Warlocks/Shadowbinders would work great as well, just like the Assassin's guilds.
4) Depending on how moddable it is, the Kingsguard can became an Open, yet-unavaliable Society.
5) The Faith Militant/Alchemist's Guild would also fit great.

I also propose making the Faith as a whole an Open Society. King Baelor was also a septon, after all.

1) There are two traits, hardly that cluttered
2) Being a novice or acolyte is someone training to be a Maester, rulers were not allowed to do that
3) That makes little sense, the Warlocks and Shadowbinders are not a collection of like minded rulers but religious like organisations with magic
4) Would be totally superfluous
5) Those two are on the list :D


1) The events certainly are though.
2) Highborn people could do so... it's not that far-fetched
3) Both are sects, and quasi-Secret societies in the vein of Medieval Alchemists. They do fit well, and it's reasonable a ruler could try to join their mysteries (as Euron or Dany).
4) I agree
5) That's great! Really looking forward to what you can do with it.
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Re: Societies in AGOT

PostPosted by Joron Corbie » Wed Dec 07, 2016 18:14

sons of the harpy?
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Re: Societies in AGOT

PostPosted by ngppgn » Thu Dec 08, 2016 15:32

Got a couple more ideas:
-a Targaryen loyalist society for A Crowned Stag and later bookmarks, composed of westerosi noblemen and influentialcharacters seeking to bring the Targaryen back. Their abilities could be modelled after the actions of Varys and Doran Martell

- @blackninja9939 had in the More Decision submod the possibility to create a sort of custom assassin guild. What about converting it in an actual custom intrigue society?

-I think the Nightswatchcoulduse the society system too, with the ranks to differentiate the stewards/builders/rangers. The society points could be used to determine who will be the next Commander with more control than the randomness of open elective.
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Re: Societies in AGOT

PostPosted by blackninja9939 » Thu Dec 08, 2016 17:08

ngppgn wrote:Got a couple more ideas:
-a Targaryen loyalist society for A Crowned Stag and later bookmarks, composed of westerosi noblemen and influentialcharacters seeking to bring the Targaryen back. Their abilities could be modelled after the actions of Varys and Doran Martell

- @blackninja9939 had in the More Decision submod the possibility to create a sort of custom assassin guild. What about converting it in an actual custom intrigue society?

-I think the Nightswatchcoulduse the society system too, with the ranks to differentiate the stewards/builders/rangers. The society points could be used to determine who will be the next Commander with more control than the randomness of open elective.

Would be a very highly specific society that would only matter for a few years, the general ability to plot and create factions already handles it very well.
Most likely, if we make the Faceless/Sorrowful Men societies then it will use the same system they do.
Night's Watch elections aren't random. Also stewards, builders and rangers are not different ranks but are all equal to each other. The only ranks in the NW really are recruit -> steward/builder/ranger -> first steward/builder/ranger -> Lord Commander and that is already represented as general courtier -> character modifier -> council position -> duke tier title
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Re: Societies in AGOT

PostPosted by ngppgn » Thu Dec 08, 2016 19:55

blackninja9939 wrote:
ngppgn wrote:Got a couple more ideas:
-a Targaryen loyalist society for A Crowned Stag and later bookmarks, composed of westerosi noblemen and influentialcharacters seeking to bring the Targaryen back. Their abilities could be modelled after the actions of Varys and Doran Martell

- @blackninja9939 had in the More Decision submod the possibility to create a sort of custom assassin guild. What about converting it in an actual custom intrigue society?

-I think the Nightswatchcoulduse the society system too, with the ranks to differentiate the stewards/builders/rangers. The society points could be used to determine who will be the next Commander with more control than the randomness of open elective.

Would be a very highly specific society that would only matter for a few years, the general ability to plot and create factions already handles it very well.
Most likely, if we make the Faceless/Sorrowful Men societies then it will use the same system they do.
Night's Watch elections aren't random. Also stewards, builders and rangers are not different ranks but are all equal to each other. The only ranks in the NW really are recruit -> steward/builder/ranger -> first steward/builder/ranger -> Lord Commander and that is already represented as general courtier -> character modifier -> council position -> duke tier title


Isn't the NW succession open elective? Maybe random is not the adequate word, but my suggestion would give it moretransparency. Also I know that ranges/builders/stewards are not ranks, I suggested that as a way to use a mechanic to better visibilize the difference than the modifier.

I thought you said faceless men weren't going to be a society. It surely makes little sense for a ruler to become a member nd keep ruling.

As for the Targ loyalist succession being already modelled by factions, I beg to differ. There is currently no way for a spymaster of the IT, the Prince of Dorne and a Pentoshi patrician to be together in a favtion/plot.

Asfor it being limited: I'd widen the scope of my suggestion: make the societyactive after the conquest whenever the Targs are removed from the IT and there are still Targ characters alive. Also make similar societies for Stark loyalist in the North and the same with the other Kingdoms.
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Re: Societies in AGOT

PostPosted by blackninja9939 » Thu Dec 08, 2016 20:09

ngppgn wrote:Isn't the NW succession open elective? Maybe random is not the adequate word, but my suggestion would give it moretransparency. Also I know that ranges/builders/stewards are not ranks, I suggested that as a way to use a mechanic to better visibilize the difference than the modifier.

The LC who inherits by the open elective succession is temporary, the actual LC is chosen by an event which has numerous weightings on who is the most suitable canidate. The modifiers work perfectly fine to show the difference, adding a whole society is totally pointless.

ngppgn wrote:I thought you said faceless men weren't going to be a society. It surely makes little sense for a ruler to become a member nd keep ruling.

Never said they wouldn't be one just that those types of societies are unlikely however the assassins guilds are a slight exception in my eyes as they would work quite well with it. As for rulers joining there may have to be a bit of gameplay>lore in that one so rulers can join but leaves a regent in their during training and missions. Or maybe not, maybe it will be a courtier only society as the faceless men had courtiers all over the world.

ngppgn wrote:As for the Targ loyalist succession being already modelled by factions, I beg to differ. There is currently no way for a spymaster of the IT, the Prince of Dorne and a Pentoshi patrician to be together in a favtion/plot.

Except you know inviting people to plots, making your own plots and like minded rulers joining factions, other than that not at all.

ngppgn wrote:Asfor it being limited: I'd widen the scope of my suggestion: make the societyactive after the conquest whenever the Targs are removed from the IT and there are still Targ characters alive. Also make similar societies for Stark loyalist in the North and the same with the other Kingdoms.

Except that is perfectly done already through plotting and the faction system, scripting a bunch of those societies is totally pointless. Societies are not a catch all replacement for everything in the game.
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Re: Societies in AGOT

PostPosted by ngppgn » Thu Dec 08, 2016 20:48

blackninja9939 wrote:
ngppgn wrote:As for the Targ loyalist succession being already modelled by factions, I beg to differ. There is currently no way for a spymaster of the IT, the Prince of Dorne and a Pentoshi patrician to be together in a favtion/plot.

Except you know inviting people to plots, making your own plots and like minded rulers joining factions, other than that not at all.


I appreciate the sarcasm; however, I still stand by my point that factions and plots are incapable of handling inter-realm conspiracies:

As far as I know Faction members have to be all direct vassals or courtiers of the same realm, which does not befit what I was saying above.

On the other hands, AFAIK, in plots you cannot define at all who can join the plot, so it is highly dependant on ai_honor, etc.

If we can mod which kind of characters are likely to join a society at all (and that of course remains to be seen), we'll get much more flexibility: if the conditions to join a society are fully scriptable, then they are a lot more suited for inter-realm intrigue than both plots and factions.

blackninja9939 wrote:
ngppgn wrote:I thought you said faceless men weren't going to be a society. It surely makes little sense for a ruler to become a member nd keep ruling.

Never said they wouldn't be one just that those types of societies are unlikely however the assassins guilds are a slight exception in my eyes as they would work quite well with it. As for rulers joining there may have to be a bit of gameplay>lore in that one so rulers can join but leaves a regent in their during training and missions. Or maybe not, maybe it will be a courtier only society as the faceless men had courtiers all over the world.


Here is an interesting design discussion to be had, I think. If you go for courtier-only faceless men, then it would seem that setting them up as a society is pointless. An on the other side, you'll have to decide to content either those who wants the more vanilla-like extra playability of the new shiny society over lore exactitude, and those who want the opposite.
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Re: Societies in AGOT

PostPosted by blackninja9939 » Thu Dec 08, 2016 20:58

I doubt that societies will be able to be made dynamically so those conspiracies will be very specific to certain realms at certain times.

As for the Assassins guilds yeah it does beg that question, I am not too sure which I want to go with personally
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Re: Societies in AGOT

PostPosted by joost_10 » Wed Dec 14, 2016 13:47

some humble idea's. I doubt it if you'll agree.

- the Sparrows? Being not entirely the same as the faith militant, more like a monastic order, connected to the faith militant.
- Silent Sisters
- The different (Qarth)-guilds
- Stone man.
- Izembaro's troupe of actors.
- greet masters
- good masters
- wise masters
- dragonlords. Can be joined by dragon riders. Have the goal to restore valeria
- Little birds. leader: master of whisperers kings landing, Only lowborn kids can join. so player unavailable.

Every religion can possibly have its own societies. in vanilla there's also a tight connection between religion and societies.
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Re: Societies in AGOT

PostPosted by blackninja9939 » Wed Dec 14, 2016 15:33

joost_10 wrote:some humble idea's. I doubt it if you'll agree.

- the Sparrows? Being not entirely the same as the faith militant, more like a monastic order, connected to the faith militant.
- Silent Sisters
- The different (Qarth)-guilds
- Stone man.
- Izembaro's troupe of actors.
- greet masters
- good masters
- wise masters
- dragonlords. Can be joined by dragon riders. Have the goal to restore valeria
- Little birds. leader: master of whisperers kings landing, Only lowborn kids can join. so player unavailable.

Every religion can possibly have its own societies. in vanilla there's also a tight connection between religion and societies.

Some interesting ideas but as said above ones that would not be joinable by lords at all are unlikely. So something like the stone men, troupe of actors or little birds will not work well. Also that the actors would have well no real goal or missions like a society, not every master of whispers of kings landing has little birds that is something unique to Varys and as for the Dragonlords not all of them would want to restore valyria would they.
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Re: Societies in AGOT

PostPosted by tirion1987 » Wed Dec 14, 2016 17:03

Maybe Stone Men being joinable by people with Greyscale? That can happen to everyone, not just courtiers and printers.
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