re: Harren Hoare

For any general subject related to the mod

re: Harren Hoare

PostPosted by PallyWC » Sat Jan 21, 2017 16:05

Soo...I've been trying to ironman a game as Harren and I'm noticing you have basically made it so that Harrenhal gets turned over to Aegon no matter what even if its held by your heir, and he's LP of the Trident :P, etc etc etc

Was wondering if this could be fixed so either
A. If you surrender intially he might merge the Iron Islands/Riverlands into a Single Kingdom under Harren from Harrenhal (as Harren intended :P)
B. ^ he might not revoke you out of Harrenhal

If you fight Aegon ok ok I can see it being damn near inevitable he's claiming Harrenhal but it should still be a possability he isnt a dick...maybe if Qoherys is dead
Last edited by PallyWC on Wed Jan 25, 2017 16:00, edited 1 time in total.
PallyWC
 
Posts: 63
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2015 18:41

Re: re: Harren Hoare

PostPosted by PallyWC » Tue Jan 24, 2017 06:12

also why does Aegon get a claim on Harrenhal...but not Storm's End, The Eyrie, The Rock...the other special fortifications in Westeros held by King's he needs to bitchslap
PallyWC
 
Posts: 63
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2015 18:41

Re: re: Harren Hoare

PostPosted by PallyWC » Thu Feb 02, 2017 15:53

PS. as this has 324 views and 0 replies or discussion :(
I theorized that if Harren had simply bent the knee and abided by his own Ironborn honour code Hoare would become the most loyal of Targaryen vassels and shifted the entire course of Westerosi history...

thus in present ironman game I've worked my way into keeping the riverlands/iron islands, reclaiming and fully building harrenhal, and im now annexing the entire kingdom of Tyrosh (all 2 highlordships lol) into the Iron Islands..also i've converted them to the proper religion/culture as I fking love that ability...and due to positioning/ships/50-70k troops I can decimate any of the other kingdoms as soon as they do anything untoward...
PallyWC
 
Posts: 63
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2015 18:41

Re: re: Harren Hoare

PostPosted by Vahir » Tue Feb 07, 2017 02:26

Harren was Ironborn. He had no honor.

Aegon would never have allowed Harren to retain control of the Riverlands, considering how brutally he was treating it.
User avatar
Vahir
 
Posts: 61
Joined: Mon Apr 01, 2013 01:02

Re: re: Harren Hoare

PostPosted by PallyWC » Tue Feb 07, 2017 04:06

Sure...the guy who was conquering an entire continent of the world due to a slight offense....would care about the brutality of other ppl..while he was you know...burning thousands and thousands of soldiers to death and maiming thousands of others who would be better dead than burned thusly...

Code of Conquest....if Harren had been smart...he would have folded as there was no winning vs the 3 dragons..and thus he had been conquered...Aegon had paid the Iron Price for the Loyalty and Fidelity of the Iron Islands.....to dishonour that would dishonour the entire Iron Islander culture... at least that is the logic im running with...the fucking greenlanders can mew about their feelings and that shit....
PallyWC
 
Posts: 63
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2015 18:41

Re: re: Harren Hoare

PostPosted by Vahir » Tue Feb 07, 2017 05:22

The "fucking greelanders" were on the verge of complete rebellion when Aegon set sail, because of how badly Harren was treating them. There's a reason why every single time the ironborn built an empire it fell apart within a few generations.

If by some insanity Aegon agreed to name Harren lord of the Trident, the Hoares would have been tossed out of the Riverlands within a generation. Rapists and thieves make piss poor rulers.
User avatar
Vahir
 
Posts: 61
Joined: Mon Apr 01, 2013 01:02

Re: re: Harren Hoare

PostPosted by PallyWC » Tue Feb 07, 2017 05:34

Vahir wrote:The "fucking greelanders" were on the verge of complete rebellion when Aegon set sail, because of how badly Harren was treating them. There's a reason why every single time the ironborn built an empire it fell apart within a few generations.

If by some insanity Aegon agreed to name Harren lord of the Trident, the Hoares would have been tossed out of the Riverlands within a generation. Rapists and thieves make piss poor rulers.


Yah it's why I nerfed that revolt by starting the game revoking the Tullys and taking Riverrun to house my son the LP of the Trident....when Harren died...he inherited the Iron Islands...and I had already raised Iron Fish to occupy Riverrun when I moved to Harrenhal (took another generation as I didnt want Aegon or his heirs flipping shit on me)....thus no revolt..as the leader was already on the wall...

I then promptly surrendered to Aegon having lost 0%....

now...with the Iron Islands +Harrenhal +Riverrun you own the Riverlands...and you can be a peaceful benevolent leader trying to keep the original houses intact and flip them through education/envy...or you can slap the Andal Houses right out of the Riverlands and establish Ironborn houses....as the Riverlands have some decent houses I'm going with conversion...presently working on Mallister/Frey/Darry/Blackwood heirs....tho Bracken went buhbye cause they just annoyed me way too much

my point is....let's say for instance...I destroy the Iron Islands keep only the Trident crush/flip the, "andal" lords in the Riverlands, Aegon invades the Stormlands and then comes after me.....I surrender... any conceivable gameplay moves to keep harrenhal/etc are rendered moot by the event that flips it to Qoherys.....and fine fine if you actively contest the conquest it should be taken...tho I'd add a chance Aegon takes other "special fortifications" during the conquest if you actively resist as well just to be fair..but I mean seriously I could have a postive opinion with Aegon and Surrender during the Dragon rider thing and it still hoses Hoare for at least 1-2 generations....

at present im suffering the 40k prestige problem of needing to burn the Trident to become the Iron Lands...
PallyWC
 
Posts: 63
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2015 18:41

Re: re: Harren Hoare

PostPosted by tirion1987 » Tue Feb 07, 2017 09:07

Vahir wrote:The "fucking greelanders" were on the verge of complete rebellion when Aegon set sail, because of how badly Harren was treating them. There's a reason why every single time the ironborn built an empire it fell apart within a few generations.

If by some insanity Aegon agreed to name Harren lord of the Trident, the Hoares would have been tossed out of the Riverlands within a generation. Rapists and thieves make piss poor rulers.

That rebellion may or may not have succeeded without Aegon, no need to railroad things that way.
tirion1987
 
Posts: 426
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2015 23:58

Re: re: Harren Hoare

PostPosted by PallyWC » Tue Feb 07, 2017 12:45

gamewise have played it out several times...without aegon the riverlands were fkd....it was flipping to his side and then having him burn the most of Hoare's Host and fleet and family...and this is before we even talk about without dragons and/or wildfire...how do you assail a fully built and manned Harrenhal exactly...lorewise it was significantly stronger as a defensive position than anything else in the world other than maybe the Wall :p
PallyWC
 
Posts: 63
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2015 18:41

Re: re: Harren Hoare

PostPosted by Vahir » Tue Feb 07, 2017 15:27

tirion1987 wrote:
Vahir wrote:The "fucking greelanders" were on the verge of complete rebellion when Aegon set sail, because of how badly Harren was treating them. There's a reason why every single time the ironborn built an empire it fell apart within a few generations.

If by some insanity Aegon agreed to name Harren lord of the Trident, the Hoares would have been tossed out of the Riverlands within a generation. Rapists and thieves make piss poor rulers.

That rebellion may or may not have succeeded without Aegon, no need to railroad things that way.


It probably would have failed, if it even happened at all. But there would have been another rebellion the next generation, and the next, and the moment house Hoare weakened it would have been kicked out of the Riverlands. I'm not saying anything should be railroaded: If you're playing as Aegon and you manage to get Harren to surrender, of course you should be able to give him back the Riverlands.

But the Riverlands must have ten times the population of the Iron islands, they're vast, and the inhabitants haaaaaaaaaate the Ironborn. The Targaryens would have to be huffing paint to think that the Ironborn could keep their peace in that region for any length of time.
User avatar
Vahir
 
Posts: 61
Joined: Mon Apr 01, 2013 01:02

Re: re: Harren Hoare

PostPosted by Vahir » Tue Feb 07, 2017 15:29

PallyWC wrote:gamewise have played it out several times...without aegon the riverlands were fkd....it was flipping to his side and then having him burn the most of Hoare's Host and fleet and family...and this is before we even talk about without dragons and/or wildfire...how do you assail a fully built and manned Harrenhal exactly...lorewise it was significantly stronger as a defensive position than anything else in the world other than maybe the Wall :p


A big castle is completely worthless when you're completely cut off from the sea (i.e. reinforcements), your forces are being whittled down by attrition, and your supplies are slowly going down. You're just going to die a rat trapped in a cage.
User avatar
Vahir
 
Posts: 61
Joined: Mon Apr 01, 2013 01:02

Re: re: Harren Hoare

PostPosted by tirion1987 » Tue Feb 07, 2017 17:39

Vahir wrote:
PallyWC wrote:gamewise have played it out several times...without aegon the riverlands were fkd....it was flipping to his side and then having him burn the most of Hoare's Host and fleet and family...and this is before we even talk about without dragons and/or wildfire...how do you assail a fully built and manned Harrenhal exactly...lorewise it was significantly stronger as a defensive position than anything else in the world other than maybe the Wall :p


A big castle is completely worthless when you're completely cut off from the sea (i.e. reinforcements), your forces are being whittled down by attrition, and your supplies are slowly going down. You're just going to die a rat trapped in a cage.

He could have brought in more colonists and nobles from the Iron Islands. What you describe is nothing some ethnic cleansing can't fix.
tirion1987
 
Posts: 426
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2015 23:58

Re: re: Harren Hoare

PostPosted by Soulbourne » Tue Feb 07, 2017 17:41

An extended siege will always win if the attacker is properly supplied. That said, I imagine harrenhall was probably not a simple fortress, but more likely a string of multiple fortiresses tied together by a wall essentially. This also means they cover a lot more land and thus could probably maintain a much higher supplementary supply over the course of the siege, so it would last awhile. But if they were locked in and the ironborn were thus left without an active leader to organize and rally a relief force to burn and pillage, it's quite likely that a group such as the ironborn would be a bit divided as to who was properly fit to lead the relief force.

However, there is another issue that renders all this a bit limited: Cultural loyalty or not(Especially since the ironborn dont seem to truly enjoy anyone outside other ironborn being in charge), leaving someone you dont have absolute faith in with a mega fortress is a risk few if any rulers of remote competency would take. There's a reason why kings forbid towns from even digging defensive ditches without a license from the crown, even basic fortifications can really draw out a rebellion and drain resources or give outlying territories undesired advantages. Marches were the only place given free reign in this regard, enjoying no direct restrictions on fortifying their land or limits on how many troops they were allowed to retain in their levies. This was to ensure that even under the fuedal system lords were sufficiently restricted in their military power to prevent successful or drawn out rebellions.

It's doubtful that aegen would of left the hoares in charge of harrenhal propper simply because giving them such a powerful position, even if not dragonproof, was a potential risk for the authority of aegen and his descendants.
Soulbourne
 
Posts: 280
Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2015 01:30

Re: re: Harren Hoare

PostPosted by suvantar » Tue Feb 07, 2017 19:09

Truthfully, I've always thought that making the things the Ironborn supposedly did sound remotely plausible was always the weakest part of ASOFAI. How can a place so resource poor that the Andals didn't bother to try to conquer it for thousands of years simultaneously support kings powerful enough to rule over the entire western coastline of Westeros?

The Ironborn are something that can really only exist in the pages of a fantasy novel - sea raiders so powerful that they can conquer the armies of established land-based nations, who hail from islands so bleak and so lacking in even basic resources that they can barely feed their own population, let alone build all the ships they supposedly build.

But at the same time, they've so thoroughly cowed the indigenous population of the land they've conquered with the armies they couldn't possibly have enough people to populate that they can build the greatest structure in the history of the world.

Where are the supply lines for these armies coming from? What are they supplying them with?

What happened to the Ironborn in the War of the Five Kings was a lot more likely than these fantastical descriptions of the things they supposedly did in ages past. They might be able to take undefended castles with the number of men they could actually land on the main continent, but as soon as a continental force of any size showed up, they would be doomed. How many ships would it take to transport an army large enough to take the Arbor? Or the Riverlands?

Okay, I can see them being able to take and hold Bear Island, because frankly, I'm not sure how fiercely the northerners would fight for an island that really doesn't produce much of anything. The Ironborn could probably take Skagos without the northerners saying much about it either if they felt like sailing all the way around the continent.

But taking all of the Riverlands? Get real. It would take thousands of ships to transport an army that size. And the Iron Islands as described just wouldn't have enough usable lumber for that, let alone enough shipwrights or shipyards. They don't produce enough food to feed a standing army that size. You might say they could raid and live off the land, but that is a pipe dream when you are talking about a force of 15,000-20,000 men. Even Hannibal couldn't do that for long and Hannibal was doing his raiding and looting in probably the richest region of the Roman Empire.
Last edited by suvantar on Tue Feb 07, 2017 20:51, edited 1 time in total.
suvantar
 
Posts: 161
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2016 14:41

Re: re: Harren Hoare

PostPosted by Mitza8 » Tue Feb 07, 2017 20:38

suvantar wrote:
Spoiler: show
Truthfully, I've always thought that making the things the Ironborn supposedly did sound remotely plausible was always the weakest part of ASOFAI. How can a place so resource poor that the Andals didn't bother to try to conquer it for thousands of years simultaneously support kings powerful enough to rule over the entire western coastline of Westeros?

The Ironborn are something that can really only exist in the pages of a fantasy novel - sea raiders so powerful that they can conquer the armies of established land-based nations, who hail from islands so bleak and so lacking in even basic resources that they can barely feed their own population, let alone build all the ships they supposedly build.

But at the same time, they've so thoroughly cowed the indigenous population of the land they've conquered with the armies they couldn't possible have enough people to populate that they can build the greatest structure in the history of the world.

Where are the supply lines for these armies coming from? What are they supplying them with?

What happened to the Ironborn in the War of the Five Kings was a lot more likely than these fantastical descriptions of the things they supposedly did in ages past. They might be able to take undefended castles with the number of men they could actually land on the main continent, but as soon as a continental force of any size showed up, they would be doomed. How many ships would it take to transport an army large enough to take the Arbor? Or the Riverlands?

Okay, I can see them being able to take and hold Bear Island, because frankly, I'm not sure how fiercely the northerners would fight for an island that really doesn't produce much of anything. The Ironborn could probably take Skagos without the northerners saying much about it either if they felt like sailing all the way around the continent.

But taking all of the Riverlands? Get real. It would take thousands of ships to transport an army that size. And the Iron Islands as described just wouldn't have enough usable lumber for that, let alone enough shipwrights or shipyards. They don't produce enough food to feed a standing army that size. You might say they could raid and live off the land, but that is a pipe dream when you are talking about a force of 15,000-20,000 men. Even Hannibal couldn't do that for long and Hannibal was doing his raiding and looting in probably the richest region of the Roman Empire.


Though some of your points make sense, I will have to correct you. I'm pretty sure that the Raiders of The Iron Islands were inspired from the Vikings - Not the best lands, but strong warriors and huge fleets that would raid poorly defended castles for loot and slaves. They didn't raid and battle whole kingdoms such as the Westerlands, but castles on the shores that might not expect quick attacks, and that are placed too far for their liege's armies to come in aid.

If I am not mistaken, the river lords were not united under one ruler, but only ruling their own "duchies" - making them easy targets for everyone around them. These lords were weakened by constant conquering from the Stormlands and constant raiding by pirates and ironborn, therefore taking over wasn't too hard for Hoare.

The thing with keeping the kingdom and building a massive castle was slave labour. Harren was considered a tyrant not only for treating his lords like shit, but also for having a massive amount of slaves and for enslaving all of his prisoners. That's how he managed to raise his enormous structure, slave builders and draining each of his vassals for money.

We don't know much about the resources of the islands, but getting ships wouldn't be too hard for a nation that gets loads of money from the iron, slavery and raiding easy targets. They are known for having poor farming conditions, but that didn't mean the population was small(I think Dorne is least populated than the Iron Islands, i'm not sure tho), so most of them turned to be warriors, hence the manpower needed to take Seagard or similar castles.

Even so, they have always been my least favourite region of Westeros, and I agree that they have always been overrated and overpowered, and kinda cringy to be fair "HURR DURR WE TAKE WHAT'S OURS".
'For the internet is dark and full of spoilers'
User avatar
Mitza8
 
Posts: 276
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 14:05
Location: White Sword Tower

Re: re: Harren Hoare

PostPosted by Soulbourne » Wed Feb 08, 2017 03:23

As was pointed out, the vikings had terrible land. Their ironworking was of lesser quality and farmland was so scarce in most of scandanavia that they were of incredible value to anyone who was able to find some. Contrary to some portrayals, most viking warbands were incredibly lightly equiped, using mostly tactics and raiding to outmanuever supperior foes quite regularly. They were able to strike fear in even massive empires with these raids and tactics, and managed to conquer and colonize large tracts of land despite themselves being incredibly divided.

Much of england saw immigration and colonization by the norse, the nomandy was land cut out of the carlmegian empire and then merged with france propper bearing both french and nordic traditions. The byzantine emporer founded the varingian guard after a nordic group called the varingians invaded and conquered large parts of the russian area, seeing these as skilled and valuable warriors for use against their foes.

The entire reason the vikings fought was because they had shit all resources back home. The only way they survived was by stealing from others and then using that wealth to trade for food imports and such. Alongside that large scale fishing was a thing, and I believe the iron isles do allow for fishing, just not farming.

To clarify on the slave thing: Slaves when properly managed just need a small number of people to keep them in line. Especially when your literally working them to death so dont feed or care for them much as harren did to construct his castle. They would of been too weak to rise up from starvation and being worked to collapse, and escapees would of been hunted down and likely publically fed to dogs next to the slave camp rather than a legit public execution, just have their bones and remnants of their corpses of to the side with their cries echoing into the night.

Now, a caveat: The vikings did have a lot of wood. They had terrible iron, little farmland, and pretty much nothing but forests. Lots of forests.
Soulbourne
 
Posts: 280
Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2015 01:30

Re: re: Harren Hoare

PostPosted by tirion1987 » Wed Feb 08, 2017 09:31

I guess the Iron Islands had wood, when they started. Like with OTL Ancient Greece, that can change.
tirion1987
 
Posts: 426
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2015 23:58

Re: re: Harren Hoare

PostPosted by PallyWC » Wed Feb 08, 2017 17:36

Vahir wrote:
PallyWC wrote:gamewise have played it out several times...without aegon the riverlands were fkd....it was flipping to his side and then having him burn the most of Hoare's Host and fleet and family...and this is before we even talk about without dragons and/or wildfire...how do you assail a fully built and manned Harrenhal exactly...lorewise it was significantly stronger as a defensive position than anything else in the world other than maybe the Wall :p


A big castle is completely worthless when you're completely cut off from the sea (i.e. reinforcements), your forces are being whittled down by attrition, and your supplies are slowly going down. You're just going to die a rat trapped in a cage.

.....you get this is the entire reason Harrenhal is where it is....
gamewise due to AI being really stupid you normally cant use it was intended...but yah it had shipyards on the gods eye, even if the Riverlanders revolted Hoare's would still be apply to supply via the blackwater and possibly the bay of crabs..and the entire point of harrenhal was to hold the riverlands simply via being there and being fking crazy......do you really think he candy assed the supplies and logistics...
PallyWC
 
Posts: 63
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2015 18:41

Re: re: Harren Hoare

PostPosted by PallyWC » Wed Feb 08, 2017 17:56

Soulbourne wrote:As was pointed out, the vikings had terrible land. Their ironworking was of lesser quality and farmland was so scarce in most of scandanavia that they were of incredible value to anyone who was able to find some. Contrary to some portrayals, most viking warbands were incredibly lightly equiped, using mostly tactics and raiding to outmanuever supperior foes quite regularly. They were able to strike fear in even massive empires with these raids and tactics, and managed to conquer and colonize large tracts of land despite themselves being incredibly divided.

Much of england saw immigration and colonization by the norse, the nomandy was land cut out of the carlmegian empire and then merged with france propper bearing both french and nordic traditions. The byzantine emporer founded the varingian guard after a nordic group called the varingians invaded and conquered large parts of the russian area, seeing these as skilled and valuable warriors for use against their foes.

The entire reason the vikings fought was because they had shit all resources back home. The only way they survived was by stealing from others and then using that wealth to trade for food imports and such. Alongside that large scale fishing was a thing, and I believe the iron isles do allow for fishing, just not farming.

To clarify on the slave thing: Slaves when properly managed just need a small number of people to keep them in line. Especially when your literally working them to death so dont feed or care for them much as harren did to construct his castle. They would of been too weak to rise up from starvation and being worked to collapse, and escapees would of been hunted down and likely publically fed to dogs next to the slave camp rather than a legit public execution, just have their bones and remnants of their corpses of to the side with their cries echoing into the night.

Now, a caveat: The vikings did have a lot of wood. They had terrible iron, little farmland, and pretty much nothing but forests. Lots of forests.


This is a true + thing....the Vikings were raiders yes...but they were also exceedingly skilled merchants due to the their naval traditions, oft being polyglots, and ability to "acquire" tradeable goods including pelts/amber in their homelands...part of the thing with the Byzantines was the trade..and to a degree the Muslims..
Slave wise it also helps when your religion involves ritual murder :P
also England had the Danelaw...which was basically from Edinburgh to London was ruled by the Vikings, Wales/Cornwall/Wessex were independant....this is where Cnut and the story about him ordering the tide to change comes from...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cnut_the_Great
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danelaw
Ps. Hrólfr the Walker FTW :P
PallyWC
 
Posts: 63
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2015 18:41

Re: re: Harren Hoare

PostPosted by PallyWC » Wed Feb 08, 2017 18:56

suvantar wrote:Truthfully, I've always thought that making the things the Ironborn supposedly did sound remotely plausible was always the weakest part of ASOFAI. How can a place so resource poor that the Andals didn't bother to try to conquer it for thousands of years simultaneously support kings powerful enough to rule over the entire western coastline of Westeros?

The Ironborn are something that can really only exist in the pages of a fantasy novel - sea raiders so powerful that they can conquer the armies of established land-based nations, who hail from islands so bleak and so lacking in even basic resources that they can barely feed their own population, let alone build all the ships they supposedly build.

But at the same time, they've so thoroughly cowed the indigenous population of the land they've conquered with the armies they couldn't possibly have enough people to populate that they can build the greatest structure in the history of the world.

Where are the supply lines for these armies coming from? What are they supplying them with?

What happened to the Ironborn in the War of the Five Kings was a lot more likely than these fantastical descriptions of the things they supposedly did in ages past. They might be able to take undefended castles with the number of men they could actually land on the main continent, but as soon as a continental force of any size showed up, they would be doomed. How many ships would it take to transport an army large enough to take the Arbor? Or the Riverlands?

Okay, I can see them being able to take and hold Bear Island, because frankly, I'm not sure how fiercely the northerners would fight for an island that really doesn't produce much of anything. The Ironborn could probably take Skagos without the northerners saying much about it either if they felt like sailing all the way around the continent.

But taking all of the Riverlands? Get real. It would take thousands of ships to transport an army that size. And the Iron Islands as described just wouldn't have enough usable lumber for that, let alone enough shipwrights or shipyards. They don't produce enough food to feed a standing army that size. You might say they could raid and live off the land, but that is a pipe dream when you are talking about a force of 15,000-20,000 men. Even Hannibal couldn't do that for long and Hannibal was doing his raiding and looting in probably the richest region of the Roman Empire.

Umm If you watch History and Lore of Westeros which im pretty sure counts as Canon it states the Andals did try to annex the Iron Islands...and either were drowned and rose or didnt :P basically they ran into zealots and eventually they ended up converting or...
PallyWC
 
Posts: 63
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2015 18:41

Next

Return to General Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests