Re: Legitimizing Orys

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Re: Legitimizing Orys

PostPosted by Valor1 » Mon Mar 06, 2017 17:38

I mean,why does Rhaenys and Visenya get pissed when Aegon uses that decision? And if that wasn't enough for 20 years,really? Why would they be so mad at Aegon legitimazing his best friend and a guy that helped him alot during his conquest?
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Re: Legitimizing Orys

PostPosted by SBerger » Tue Mar 07, 2017 05:05

Because it puts him above in the line of succession than Aegon's sisters.
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Re: Legitimizing Orys

PostPosted by kaxa80 » Tue Mar 07, 2017 11:01

SBerger wrote:Because it puts him above in the line of succession than Aegon's sisters.


Now that i think about it, why is preconquest Dragonstone an agnatic-cognatic inheritance lordship instead of a pure agnatic one?
I mean we know that after forming the seven kingdoms Aegon consolidated a pure agnatic (males only) monarchy, so doesn't this pretty clearly incline that the valyrians in general disallowed women to take on active political roles and thus consequently inherit lands/titles? I mean if we consider that Aegon was a staunch protector of the valyrian traditions,(supporter of polygamy, incest , blood purity etc.) and that the only time he actually deviated from this policy was in order to secure his kingdom (changing religion), it becomes quite obvious that Dragonstone (if not all of valyria) had pure agnatic succession, at least after Aegon took over.
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Re: Legitimizing Orys

PostPosted by Valor1 » Tue Mar 07, 2017 18:09

kaxa80 wrote:
SBerger wrote:Because it puts him above in the line of succession than Aegon's sisters.


Now that i think about it, why is preconquest Dragonstone an agnatic-cognatic inheritance lordship instead of a pure agnatic one?
I mean we know that after forming the seven kingdoms Aegon consolidated a pure agnatic (males only) monarchy, so doesn't this pretty clearly incline that the valyrians in general disallowed women to take on active political roles and thus consequently inherit lands/titles? I mean if we consider that Aegon was a staunch protector of the valyrian traditions,(supporter of polygamy, incest , blood purity etc.) and that the only time he actually deviated from this policy was in order to secure his kingdom (changing religion), it becomes quite obvious that Dragonstone (if not all of valyria) had pure agnatic succession, at least after Aegon took over.


Aegon adopted the agnatic succesion purely because he wanted to please the Westerosi lords,the same way he adopted the faith of the seven.Valyrians never practiced the Agnatic[aka males only] succesion, and we can see this from Jaenara Belaerys who was a dragonrider,which makes her a Dragonlord,if they really didn't want women to inherit anything they wouldn't have trusted them with dragons.The Valyrians probably had a far more advanced democratic system in which the dragonlord families had all of their important family members vote in the name of that family.
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Re: Re: Legitimizing Orys

PostPosted by Joron Corbie » Tue Mar 07, 2017 20:22

Actually a dragon rider is only just that a dragon rider, not a dragon lord. As we see in westeros later on with several dragon riders. I guess this is best shown during the dance of dragons with the dragon seeds, they held no titles other than that of being dragonriders.
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Re: Re: Legitimizing Orys

PostPosted by Joron Corbie » Tue Mar 07, 2017 20:35

however to support the agnatic/cognatic, the valyrians had no gender specific title for prince and the same title was used on both males and females.
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Re: Legitimizing Orys

PostPosted by kaxa80 » Tue Mar 07, 2017 23:06

Valor1 wrote:
Aegon adopted the agnatic succesion purely because he wanted to please the Westerosi lords,the same way he adopted the faith of the seven.


While the male oriented approach maybe partly justified by Aegon's need to appeal to the majority of the empowered individuals in the kingdoms, it doesn't really explain the apparent radical monogenderal character of the succession laws which he imposed, I mean the andals didn't have strict agnatic succession and sometimes allowed women to inherit if there were no valid male heirs (the Whents or the Lannisters, for example), which is more of a agnatic-congative friendly approach than a pure agnatic one, right? Thus. it makes sense to assume that Aegon based his decision on ancient valyrian tradition, since he wasn't really required to go all the way with his chauvinistic approach and could have, if he so wished, gone for a classic andal agnatic-cognative setup for the IT.
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Re: Legitimizing Orys

PostPosted by Tiranasta » Tue Mar 07, 2017 23:11

kaxa80 wrote:
Valor1 wrote:
Aegon adopted the agnatic succesion purely because he wanted to please the Westerosi lords,the same way he adopted the faith of the seven.


While the male oriented approach maybe partly justified by the Aegon's need to appeal to the majority of the empowered individuals in the kingdoms, it doesn't really explain the apparent radical monogenderal character of the succession laws which he imposed, I mean the andals didn't have strict agnatic succession and sometimes allowed women to inherit if there were no valid male heirs (the whents or the oakhearts for example), which is more of a agnatic-congative friendly approach than a pure agnatic one right? Thus it makes sense to assume that Aegon based his decision on ancient valyrian tradition.

The Targaryen succession was (ostensibly) agnatic-cognatic until the Dance of the Dragons, though Jaehaerys I did overrule that on one occasion by making Baelon his heir over Rhaenys.
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Re: Legitimizing Orys

PostPosted by kaxa80 » Tue Mar 07, 2017 23:15

Tiranasta wrote:
kaxa80 wrote:
Valor1 wrote:
Aegon adopted the agnatic succesion purely because he wanted to please the Westerosi lords,the same way he adopted the faith of the seven.


While the male oriented approach maybe partly justified by the Aegon's need to appeal to the majority of the empowered individuals in the kingdoms, it doesn't really explain the apparent radical monogenderal character of the succession laws which he imposed, I mean the andals didn't have strict agnatic succession and sometimes allowed women to inherit if there were no valid male heirs (the whents or the oakhearts for example), which is more of a agnatic-congative friendly approach than a pure agnatic one right? Thus it makes sense to assume that Aegon based his decision on ancient valyrian tradition.

The Targaryen succession was (ostensibly) agnatic-cognatic until the Dance of the Dragons, though Jaehaerys I did overrule that on one occasion by making Baelon his heir over Rhaenys.


But what is your assumption based on? I mean prior to the dance the favoritism thorward the male members of the royal family (inheritance wise) is clear and undisputed.Also it's noteworthy that there were cases where sisters of childless kings were ignored inheritance wise during succession (your Balon the blessed and his uncle Vyseris being a good example), which consolidates my thesis that the Targaryans employed the pure agnatic and not the agnatic-cognatic law.
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Re: Legitimizing Orys

PostPosted by Tiranasta » Tue Mar 07, 2017 23:22

kaxa80 wrote:But what is your assumption based on? I mean prior to the dance the favoritism thorward the male members of the royal family (inheritance wise) is clear and undisputed.

That Jaehaerys has to explicitly declare Baelon his heir suggests that he wouldn't have been his heir otherwise, and Alysanne seemed to think that this was not the lawful succession. Additionally, no one seemed to find Rhaenyra being Viserys I's heir odd (despite the existence of other, male Targaryens at the time) until Viserys had a son.
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Re: Legitimizing Orys

PostPosted by Tiranasta » Tue Mar 07, 2017 23:27

And above all, this: http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Ent ... ly_20_232/

I told George that when he changed Viserys I from a son to a brother he created an error in that Baelor's sisters did not inherit the throne after him, George replied that women came after all men in the Targaryen succession after TDWD. Something interesting and neatly explains Daena and the rest not becoming queen.
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Re: Legitimizing Orys

PostPosted by SBerger » Wed Mar 08, 2017 22:17

But what is your assumption based on? I mean prior to the dance the favoritism thorward the male members of the royal family (inheritance wise) is clear and undisputed.Also it's noteworthy that there were cases where sisters of childless kings were ignored inheritance wise during succession (your Balon the blessed and his uncle Vyseris being a good example), which consolidates my thesis that the Targaryans employed the pure agnatic and not the agnatic-cognatic law.


Targaryen succession was established in the Council of 101AC when the lords of Westeros almost unanimously ruled for a male only succession line. Viserys I Targaryen tried to overrule this by naming his eldest child as heir, but Lord Commander Criston Cole sort of messed this up by prematurely naming Aegon king before Rhaenerya (Princess of Dragonstone, heir apparent..) heard the news of her father's death.
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Re: Legitimizing Orys

PostPosted by JDSweet » Sat Mar 25, 2017 02:57

SBerger wrote:
But what is your assumption based on? I mean prior to the dance the favoritism thorward the male members of the royal family (inheritance wise) is clear and undisputed.Also it's noteworthy that there were cases where sisters of childless kings were ignored inheritance wise during succession (your Balon the blessed and his uncle Vyseris being a good example), which consolidates my thesis that the Targaryans employed the pure agnatic and not the agnatic-cognatic law.


Targaryen succession was established in the Council of 101AC when the lords of Westeros almost unanimously ruled for a male only succession line. Viserys I Targaryen tried to overrule this by naming his eldest child as heir, but Lord Commander Criston Cole sort of messed this up by prematurely naming Aegon king before Rhaenerya (Princess of Dragonstone, heir apparent..) heard the news of her father's death.


It wasn't unanimous - many lords voted for Rhaenys (Stark and Manderly). It is just that tge majority voted for Viserys. If I had to guess based on support for Rhaenyra during the Dance, I wpuld guess 30% of lords supported Rhaenys and her son Laenor Velaryon.
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Re: Legitimizing Orys

PostPosted by Olenna » Sat Mar 25, 2017 16:34

On the subject of legitimizing Orys, has anyone tried doing it after he takes the Stormlands? I began a War of Conquest playthrough recently and figured that he deserved it as a Lord Paramount but he was still a Baratheon after choosing to legitimize him.
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Re: Legitimizing Orys

PostPosted by tirion1987 » Sun Mar 26, 2017 15:01

Olenna wrote:On the subject of legitimizing Orys, has anyone tried doing it after he takes the Stormlands? I began a War of Conquest playthrough recently and figured that he deserved it as a Lord Paramount but he was still a Baratheon after choosing to legitimize him.

He stays a Baratheon if you use the old intrigue decision to legitimize him. Also does that when asking to be legitimized (when landed) if he's a patrician under your merchant republic BTW.
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