Noble Houses and Settlements/Places Relocation Project

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Re: Noble Houses and Settlements/Places Relocation Project

PostPosted by Corvo the Crow » Fri Aug 04, 2017 15:11

Possible, very minor spoilers about the show below.

As I was moving I had no internet connection for sometime and though I have some internets now I'm still not done moving so I'm unable to search for new stuff. In the mean time, I have seen some scenes from the new season which showed a map of westeros painted in the red keep and painted table of Aegon and watching season 2 again, I noticed the first episode also had the painted table with some castles visible on it. If anyone is interested, can you please check those out so we may have some semi-canon info on some places?
Because he's the king that Westeros deserves, but not the one it needs right now. So we'll fight him, because he can take it. He is a teeth gritting guardian. He is pure iron. A truly just man.
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Re: Noble Houses and Settlements/Places Relocation Project

PostPosted by Corvo the Crow » Wed Aug 09, 2017 12:33

Region: Crownlands

House: House Brune of Dyre Den

Location: Move it to county of North Crackclaw

Reason:

- The map of Westeros Cersei gets painted on the floor shows Dyre Den near the tip of Crackclaw peninsula and north of the Whispers. HBO maps have their mistakes ( Painted map has faircastle where Kayce should be and Rook's Rest is named Rook's Nest in Cersei's map) but it is better than nothing.

- Some quotes from AFFC 20 Brienne
Spoiler: show
The next day the road dwindled to a pebbled thread, and finally to a mere suggestion. Near midday, it came to an abrupt end at the foot of a wind-carved cliff. Above, a small castle stood frowning over the waves, its three crooked towers outlined against a leaden sky. "Is that the Whispers?" Podrick asked.


"That look a bloody ruin t' you?" Crabb spat. "That's the Dyre Den, where old Lord Brune keeps his seat. Road ends here, though. It's the pines for us from here on."


Brienne studied the cliff. "How do we get up there?"

....

Lord Brune's castle dwindled at their backs, and soon was lost to sight. Sentinels and soldier pines rose all around them, towering green-clad spears thrusting toward the sky. The forest floor was a bed of fallen needles as thick as a castle wall, littered with pinecones. The hooves of their horses seemed to make no sound. It rained a bit, stopped for a time, then started once again, but amongst the pines they scarce felt a drop.

....

They made camp early that night, after they came down a hill and found themselves on the edge of a glistening green bog. In the grey-green light, the ground ahead looked solid enough, but when they'd ridden out it had swallowed their horses up to their withers. They had to turn and fight their way back onto more solid footing. "It's no matter," Crabb assured them. "We'll go back up the hill and come down another way."
Though there's no mention of which way they went after passing Dyre Den, they could have kept going north and east then went south again.


Region: Crownlands

House: Crabb

Location: Give them a barony under Dyre Den

Reason:
- Whispers is a ruin and conversation between Brienne and Dick Crabb suggests he might have been part of Lord Brune's army. In spoiler is a quote

Spoiler: show
It was on her lips to ask her guide which king Lord Brune had espoused, but it made no matter any longer. Brune's sons were gone; some might not be coming back. We will have no hospitality here tonight. A castle full of old men, women, and children was not like to open its doors to armed strangers. "You speak of Lord Brune as if you know him," she said to Nimble Dick.

"Might be I did, once."

She glanced at the breast of his doublet. Loose threads and a ragged patch of darker fabric showed where some badge had been torn away. Her guide was a deserter, she did not doubt. Could the rider behind them be one of his brothers-in-arms?
Because he's the king that Westeros deserves, but not the one it needs right now. So we'll fight him, because he can take it. He is a teeth gritting guardian. He is pure iron. A truly just man.
Corvo the Crow
 
Posts: 397
Joined: Fri Aug 30, 2013 21:01

Re: Noble Houses and Settlements/Places Relocation Project

PostPosted by Corvo the Crow » Wed Aug 09, 2017 13:27

Not exactly a relocation, this will need a small redrawing of the map if it will be done.

Region: Reach

Place: Highgarden

Location: It is within the area of it's current county, but north of the Mander.

Reason: -One Dornish King crossed the Mander to sack Highgarden during Manderly and Peake rivarlry over Kingdom of the Reach



Next will probably be several houses and places from northern reach including Stackhouse, Old Oak, Standfast, Coldmoat, Golden Grove.
Because he's the king that Westeros deserves, but not the one it needs right now. So we'll fight him, because he can take it. He is a teeth gritting guardian. He is pure iron. A truly just man.
Corvo the Crow
 
Posts: 397
Joined: Fri Aug 30, 2013 21:01

Re: Noble Houses and Settlements/Places Relocation Project

PostPosted by Corvo the Crow » Wed Aug 09, 2017 18:39

While doing research for these, I've encountered some stuff (such as which houses married/could marry into which houses, which ones has twice the smallfolk of the other, how many houses they have sworn to them...) that could be used to determine the relative power of a house within their own region and what house is/should be similar to them in other regions.

One example of such is the list of houses Osgreys married to, given by Ser Eustace Osgrey. After giving a list of houses, he says Osgreys "even married to" Blackwoods and Hightowers, which, at the time, would suggest that the relative power of Blackwoods, or their "tier", within their region was comparable to those of Hightowers within theirs. This also suggests Osgreys were comparable in relative power (and more likely also power) to the Blackwoods.

In future additions, I may, if I can find any, use such information to give additional suggestions as towhich houses should get a High Lordship, how many counties (and baronies) these Highlordships could have and what should be the level of their castles.
Because he's the king that Westeros deserves, but not the one it needs right now. So we'll fight him, because he can take it. He is a teeth gritting guardian. He is pure iron. A truly just man.
Corvo the Crow
 
Posts: 397
Joined: Fri Aug 30, 2013 21:01

Re: Noble Houses and Settlements/Places Relocation Project

PostPosted by Corvo the Crow » Tue Aug 15, 2017 12:31

Region: Reach

Place: Standfast

Location: East of Coldmoat, currently it is south of it.

Place: Leafylake

Location: It should be North-East of Coldmoat. It is currently a barony under Coldmoat, I suggest making it a barony under Dosk county.


Reason: Quotes in the spoiler.

Spoiler: show
The stream flowed north and east when it was flowing, so he turned Thunder south and west.
He had not ridden a dozen yards before Bennis caught him. "I best come see you don't get hanged."
He pushed a fresh sourleaf into his mouth. "Past that clump o' sandwillows, the whole right bank is spider land."


"Osgrey?" The septon glanced at the Longinch. "Osgrey of the chequy lion? I thought House Osgrey was extinguished."


"Near enough as makes no matter. The old man is the last of them. We let him keep a crumbling towerhouse a few leagues east." Ser Lucas frowned at Dunk. "If Ser Eustace wants to talk with her ladyship, let him come himself." His eyes narrowed. "You were the one with Bennis at the dam. Don't trouble to deny it. I ought to hang you."


"We'll take the west way," Ser Eustace announced. "It is little used these past years, but still the shortest way from Standfast to Coldmoat Castle." The path took them around back of the hill, past the graves where the old knight had laid his wife and sons to rest in a thicket of blackberry bushes. "They loved to pick the berries here, my boys. When they were little they would come to me with sticky faces and scratches on their arms, and I'd know just where they'd been." He smiled fondly. "Your Egg reminds me of my Addam. A brave boy, for one so young. Addam was trying to protect his wounded brother Harrold when the battle washed over them. A riverman with six acorns on his shield took his arm off with an ax." His sad gray eyes found Dunk's. "This old master of yours, the knight of Pennytree . . . did he fight in the Blackfyre Rebellion?"


Ser Eustace reined up. "A tree cat. I had not known there were any left in this wood. I wonder what killed him." When no one answered, he said, "I will turn back here. Just continue on the west way and it will take you straight to Coldmoat. You have the coin?" Dunk nodded. "Good. Come home with my water, ser." The old knight trotted off, back the way they'd come.

"It was a grant of rights, ser. To Lord Wyman Webber, from the king. For his leal service in the late rebellion, Lord Wyman and his descendants were granted all rights to the Chequy Water, from where it rises in the Horseshoe Hills to the shores of Leafy Lake. It also said that Lord Wyman and his descendants should have the right to take red deer and boar and rabbits in Wat's Wood whene'er it pleased them, and to cut twenty trees from the wood each year." The boy cleared his throat. "The grant was only for a time, though. The paper said that if Ser Eustace were to die without a male heir of his body, Standfast would revert to the crown, and Lord Webber's privileges would end."

A few green trees still stood where the west way crossed the Chequy Water. Their trunks were charred and blackened on one side. Just beyond, the water glimmered darkly. Blue and green, Dunk thought, but all the gold is gone. The smoke had veiled the sun.

Ser Eustace halted when he reached the water's edge. "I took a holy vow. I will not cross that stream.


House: Stackhouse

Location: With the current map I suggest moving it to where Standfast currently is.

Reason:
- Stackhouses have a claim to Horseshoe hills, which is located in the southern parts of the Webber lands, so they should share a border with them but not in the northern side of Webber lands.

- They should also be vassals of Rowans, just like Webbers, as a feudal lord Rowans wouldn't let lands of their vassals to pass to another lord, who is likely also a vassal under a different great lord.

House: Conklyn

Location: They should be moved to current Dosk County, but perhaps under a different name.

Reason: Rohanne Webber mentions Ser Conklyn has a claim on Leafy Lake. Chequy Water flows north-east and ends at Leafy Lake.

Reason:
For the moment, though, the tangled underbrush along the Chequy Water was still thick with thorny vines, nettles, and tangles of briarwhite and young willow. Rather than fight through it, they crossed the dry streambed to the Coldmoat side, where the trees had been cleared away for pasture. Amongst the parched brown grasses and faded wildflowers, a few black-nosed sheep were grazing. "Never knew an animal stupid as a sheep," Ser Bennis commented. "Think they're kin to you, lunk?" When Dunk did not reply, he laughed his chicken laugh again.

"Wat's Wood once extended all the way to Coldmoat," Ser Eustace said. "I do not recall who Wat was. Before the Conquest you could find aurochs in his wood, though, and great elks of twenty hands and more. There were more red deer than any man could take in a lifetime, for none but the king and the chequy lion were allowed to hunt here. Even in my father's day, there were trees on both sides of the stream, but the spiders cleared the woods away to make pasture for their cows and sheep and horses."




Place: Old Oak

Location: Move it to Catswold county.

Reason: It is roughly where it is currently, but moving it a bit south would allow two things, another county between Old Oak and Westerlands-Reach border, and a county that is North-West of Webber lands to move Leafy Lake as a barony for a dispute between Lady Webber and Ser Conklyn (From the Sworn Sword)

The reason to give a county between the Westerlands-Reach border and Old Oak is below in spoiler.

Spoiler: show
The first Lancel Lannister (known, of course, as Lancel the Lion) rode to war against the Gardener kings of Highgarden and conquered the Reach as far south as Old Oak before being felled in battle. (His son, Loreon III, lost all his father had gained and earned the mocking name Loreon the Limp).



Highlordship: Northmarch

Borders: It should contain HL of Redlake as de jure, (currently before conquest it is under Osgrey Rule but not a dejure part of it)

Reason:

-House Crane, along with houses Rowan and Old Oak, is descended from Gardeners and was added into Reach in a peaceful way, so they were likely sworn directly to Highgarden at first. But they were, at least for sometime, under Osgrey rule, being part of the Northmarch.

Spoiler: show
-Lancel IV is said to have beheaded the ironborn king Harrald Halfdrowned and his heir with a single stroke of the Valyrian steel greatsword Brightroar at the Battle of Lann's Point; he later died in battle at Red Lake whilst attempting to invade the Reach. TWOIAF


- House Crane, along with house Mullendore were mentioned to be principal houses sworn to Highgarden in the appendix of Game of Thrones but house Mullendore is later shown as sworn to Hightowers, and Cranes are not mentioned to be among the principal bannerman of Tyrells, with also no mention of a lord Crane. Among the known Cranes, however, there are three sers, Vortimer, master-at-arms of Highgarden, Parmen, the purple of Renly's KG, and Vortimer, married to Rylene Florent, sister of Lord Alester Florent (Alester is also married to a Crane, Meredyth) They may have lost the title of Lord sometime in the past and sworn themselves to Osgreys, which is not something unheard of; House Connington is one example of a house losing the right to be a lordship in the near past of the saga and House Charlton is an example of a house swearing themselves to another, evidenced by being an older house than the Freys. Another example would be Toletts, an Andal house who fought against the first men united under House Royce being sworn to them, even though the first men lost to the Andals fighting under Arryns.

- Another case of a "cadet house" of House Gardener being sworn under another house is House Beesbury being sworn to Hightowers. So not all "cadets" of the Gardeners are sworn directly to the seat of Highgarden.

Another solution for Highmarch and Red lake could be leaving Red Lake highlordship as it currently is but making it defunct with houses under it sworn to Northmarch, like it is with House Manderly - Broken Branch.
Because he's the king that Westeros deserves, but not the one it needs right now. So we'll fight him, because he can take it. He is a teeth gritting guardian. He is pure iron. A truly just man.
Corvo the Crow
 
Posts: 397
Joined: Fri Aug 30, 2013 21:01

Re: Noble Houses and Settlements/Places Relocation Project

PostPosted by Andre Massena » Sat Aug 19, 2017 12:49

I think Penrose/Parchments should be a High Lord instead of being sworn to Tarth with Haystack Hall and Drakesgrave as its vassals.Tarth would remain as a High Lord but would just have its island.

Reasons:
-There is no mention of the Penrose being sworn to Tarth
-It would seem impractical for Tarth to have vassals on the mainland since it is an island
-There is already precedent in the Arbor for an island-only high lordship
-The Penroses have twice married Targaryens, which puts them in the company of the Arryns, Baratheons, and Martells as the only non-Valaryian houses to have multiple Targaryen matches. This indicates they are likely higher-tier lords.
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