Noble Houses and Settlements/Places Relocation Project

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Noble Houses and Settlements/Places Relocation Project

PostPosted by Corvo the Crow » Fri Mar 24, 2017 14:46

There are many houses, settlements and places we do not know the exact location of, so they are just put to some place on the map or other. It is my intention to locate places they are likely to be, using information given from the books, their coat of arms and logic. If, other things like whether a house is a cadet or a vassal of the other is also found out/seems likely, I'll also add them.

I plan to use this format for the posts:

Region: North

House: Slates of Blackpool

Location: Somewhere in High Lordship of White Harbor or High Lordship of Broken Branch.

Other: It is possible that Poole's are a cadet branch of Slates.

Reason: Among the other houses(Greystarks, Flints, Longs, Lockes, Ashwoods, Holts) known to have held the Wolf's den at one time or the other, two (Lockes and Flints) are located within this area and one (Holts) is, judging by what we know of them( a member, Ser Maynard Holt, is a ship captain in NW) very likely to be in this area as well. Other houses are also very likely to be in this area.

Poole's and Slates have a somewhat similar CoA and Poole's name may be a reference to Blackpool, seat of Slates.

I hope this topic will bring others attention as well so I'll get some help on it.

I'll also add below a small gem I've found out, may help with CoA's.

http://tinyton.org/heraldry.htm
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Re: Noble Houses and Settlements/Places Relocation Project

PostPosted by Corvo the Crow » Fri Mar 24, 2017 20:50

Region: Riverlands

House: Vance of Wayfarer's Rest

Location: Between Riverrun and Pinkmaiden, east of Red Fork with perhaps some land on the western side.

Reason: -Karyl Vance, Raymun Darry and Marq Piper are sent by Edmure Tully to ask permission to retaliate due to Gregor Clegane's attack on the settlements on Red Fork, from south to north, Wendish Town, Sherrer and Mummer's Ford (Mummer's Ford is located along both banks). Pipers and Vances are later commanded to guard the pass beneat the Golden Tooth.

- Pipers' location is already known and also that of Smallwoods', vassals of Vances; located southeast of Riverrun, northeast of Pinkmaiden, and north of Stoney Sept, near High Heart.

Below are some quote's from AGOT chapter 43, Eddard.
Spoiler: show
Joss," Ser Raymun Darry said to a plump balding man in a brewer's apron. "Tell the Hand what happened at Sherrer."

I kept an alehouse, m'lord, in Sherrer, by the stone bridge. The finest ale south of the Neck, everyone said so, begging your pardons, m'lord. It's gone now like all the rest, m'lord. They come and drank their fill and spilled the rest before they fired my roof, and they would of spilled my blood too, if they'd caught me. M'lord."

"They burnt us out," a farmer beside him said. "Come riding in the dark, up from the south, and fired the fields and the houses alike,


Ser Raymun Darry took up the tale. "At Wendish Town, the people sought shelter in their holdfast, but the walls were timbered. The raiders piled straw against the wood and burnt them all alive. When the Wendish folk opened their gates to flee the fire, they shot them down with arrows as they came running out, even women with suckling babes."

They would of done the same for us, but the Sherrer holdfast's made of stone," Joss said.
Some wanted to smoke us out, but the big one said there was riper fruit upriver, and they made for the Mummer's Ford."


I'll most likely do Blackwoods next, information on them is conflicting.
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Re: Noble Houses and Settlements/Places Relocation Project

PostPosted by Corvo the Crow » Sun Mar 26, 2017 19:53

It's been two days, though I was hoping to have it done by yesterday. I see that it had some views in the mean time so this may actually take flight soon. :lol: Unfortunately I couldn't find all of my notes on this, and the books aren't at hand, but I still believe there's enough information.

Region: Riverlands

House: Blackwood

Location: East of Stone Hedge, Around Harrenhal.

Reason:

-During the resolution of the siege of Raventree, Lord Jonos Bracken asks Ser Jaime Lannister for the east bank of the Widow's Wash (a stream with islands in it, a part of the border between Brackens and Blackwoods) from Crossbow Ridge to Rutting Meadow and all the islands in the stream for subduing Lord Tytos Blackwood. Jaime agrees to the transfer of Crossbow Ridge but not the rest of the shore.

-After dealing with Tytos Blackwood, Jaime uses a different route, he fords the widowswash near pennytree, a settlement between the Teats located near the disputed border, it's a royal fief since around 200.

- In the spoiler below are some quotes from Tyrion chapter
Spoiler: show
Your brother has been covering himself with glory," his father said.
"He smashed the Lords Vance and Piper at the Golden Tooth, and met the massed power of the Tullys
under the walls of Riverrun. The lords of the Trident have been put to rout. Ser Edmure Tully was taken
captive, with many of his knights and bannermen. Lord Blackwood led a few survivors back to Riverrun, where
Jaime has them under siege. The rest fled to their own strongholds."


"Your father and I have been marching on each in turn," Ser Kevan said. "With Lord Blackwood gone,
Raventree fell at once, and Lady Whent yielded Harrenhal for want of men to defend it.
Ser Gregor burnt out the Pipers and the Brackens . . . "
"Leaving you unopposed?" Tyrion said.
"Not wholly," Ser Kevan said. "The Mallisters still hold Seagard and Walder Frey is
marshaling his levies at the Twins."


- It's current placement makes it around whispering wood but according to the quotes above it was Tywin/Kevan who took Raventreehall, not Jaime, and if it was near whispering wood, Robb might've taken it on his way to Riverrun or they may have spotted Robb as he was marching south and sent a Raven to Jaime.


Next, I will do Darrys. I'm actually very happy with their current location, as it was me who suggested them to be where they are now( with supporting information). While doing the above two houses, however, I've come into some more information. My suggestion with them will not be a relocation but be adding of some more locations.
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Re: Noble Houses and Settlements/Places Relocation Project

PostPosted by Corvo the Crow » Sat Apr 15, 2017 22:57

Region: Riverlands

Place: Sherrer

Location: It's currently in Deddington county, should be somewhere on Red Fork between Riverrun and Pinkmaiden

Reason: Quotes below, which were also given in an earlier post.


Region: Riverlands

House: Darry

Location: Current location is fine, it should also include Sherrer though

Reason: -Seeing how Raymun Darry comes along with Marq Piper and Karyl Vance and also gives his reason for not being there to defend his lands, it is apparent each of the towns belong to one of these houses.

-Since Sherrer is located between the other two towns, which are closer to Pinkmaiden and Acorn Hall - vassals of Vances- respectively, it is more likely that Raymun owns Sherrer.


- There's a man from Sherrer who says he worked in old Ser Willum's stables.and Ser Willum could very well be Ser Willem Darry with his name spelled wrongly, either by a mistake, or intentionally ( like "milord", not "my lord").

- Darrys are an old house so it is very likely they have some other branches, Raymun and Willem and Jonothor, who is Willem's brother, may not be from the same branch or even if they are, Raymun lost three older brothers, Jonothor being a Kings guard owns no lands, Raymun may have been a second or third son, holding the Sherrer while eldest brother owning Darry lands near the trident. Ser Raymun would then have inherited the lands because he is the last remaining brother, or because he's the closest to Willem's branch, therefore being his heir.


Below are quotes from Eddard's chapter where he deals with the trio of Riverlanders.

Concerning their horses," he said, "it were warhorses they rode. Many a year I worked in old Ser Willum's stables, so I knows the difference. Not a one of these ever pulled a plow, gods bear witness if I'm wrong."

Ser Marq, Ser Karyl, Ser Raymun—perhaps I might ask you a question? These holdfasts were under your protection. Where were you when all this slaughtering and burning was going on?"
Ser Karyl Vance answered. "I was attending my lord father in the pass below the Golden Tooth, as was Ser Marq. When the word of these outrages reached Ser Edmure Tully, he sent word that we should take a small force of men to find what survivors we could and bring them to the king."
Ser Raymun Darry spoke up. "Ser Edmure had summoned me to Riverrun with all my strength. I was camped across the river from his walls, awaiting his commands, when the word reached me. By the time I could return to my own lands, Clegane and his vermin were back across the Red Fork, riding for Lannister's hills."


If your fields and holdfasts are safe from harm," Lord Petyr was saying, "what then do you ask of the throne?"
"The lords of the Trident keep the king's peace," Ser Raymun Darry said. "The Lannisters have broken it. We ask leave to answer them, steel for steel. We ask justice for the smallfolk of Sherrer and Wendish Town and the Mummer's Ford."



This is how Ser Willem is described in the wiki: "Willem was staunchly loyal to House Targaryen. He was a grey bear of a man who was half-blind. He had a gruff, kind voice and big wrinkled hands, soft as old leather."

Should've written this post much earlier but I have an exam coming next friday and I'm already in a very tight situation with my school. Next will very likely be Boltons and Hornwoods
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Re: Noble Houses and Settlements/Places Relocation Project

PostPosted by Corvo the Crow » Sat Apr 29, 2017 06:44

Region: North

House: Bolton

Location: Between Weeping Water and Last River and possibly also a small stretch of land extending to White Knife near Lonely Hills.

Reason:

-According to AWOIAF, lands of the Red Kings stretched from the Last River to White Knife, and went as far South as Sheepshead hills.

-Hornwoods rule the area north of Sheepshead hills now and their lands also extend to the White Knife and adjoin with Bolton lands and Lonely Hills just north of Dreadfort is ruled by Umbers, which doesn't give Boltons as much land as they do in the mod.

Region: North

House: Hornwood

Location: It should border White Knife on one side and Boltons' land on another. It isn't unlikely they rule most if not all the lands Boltons ruled as a king but do not have now.

Reason

- Lord Halys goes to Winterfell when Robb Stark calls the banners. He gives gifts to Robb in hopes that he will give him leave to dam the White Knife, hunting privileges north of a ridge, and a holdfast taken from his grandfather.

- "Roose Bolton, who is named our Warden of the North, requires that I give up my claim to Lord Hornwood's lands and castles but swears my other holdings shall remain untouched." This is said by Wyman Manderly to Davos, Indicating Hornwoods have more than just one castle, maybe as their own or through vassals, so they must control a large region.
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Re: Noble Houses and Settlements/Places Relocation Project

PostPosted by knuckey » Mon May 01, 2017 11:29

I am noting these suggestions, and will consider them in due course, it may be a while though :D
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Re: Noble Houses and Settlements/Places Relocation Project

PostPosted by Corvo the Crow » Wed May 03, 2017 18:17

Thanks! It is also taking me a while to find these so you adding them over time may be to the benefit of all :lol:
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Re: Noble Houses and Settlements/Places Relocation Project

PostPosted by Corvo the Crow » Thu May 04, 2017 17:19

Region: North

House: Manderly

Location: Their vassals shouldn't include House Locke and their lands should start east of White Knife, not including the western side.

Reason:
- Manderly promises Davos the help of all the lands east of White Knife, saying he has a hundred landed knights and a dozen petty lords as vassals and Flint's of Widow's Watch and Lockes will take their lead from him.

- Maps from the novels show the western side of White Knife as Barrowlands.

Region: North

Place: Barrowlands

Location: "The barrowlands is an area of extensive plains between Winterfell and Moat Cailin in the North. The barrowlands appear to be bounded by the wolfswood to the north, the White Knife and the Bite to the east, the Neck to the south, and the Rills to the West" Taken from wiki.

Reason: Quote above from the wiki and maps (maps from the novels and TWOIAF)

Other: House Dustin shouldn't own all the Barrowlands, so perhaps it'd be a good idea to make Barrowton a duchy a single county duchy and making Barrowlands a defunct duchy with one of it's counties a vassal under Barrowton.

I'll add the maps and will try to find some quotes on both of the suggestions above once I have time.
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Re: Noble Houses and Settlements/Places Relocation Project

PostPosted by Corvo the Crow » Tue May 23, 2017 13:59

Region: Vale

House: Ruthermont

Location: We don't have much on this house, so impossible to pinpoint their location but they should be on a coastal province near a mountain.

Reason:
- Their name, Ruthermont, means cattle mountain; according to wiktionary, ruther/rother means ox or cattle.

- The stars on their sigil aren't actually stars, but starfish, which would indicate being near a sea.
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Re: Noble Houses and Settlements/Places Relocation Project

PostPosted by stale » Tue May 23, 2017 16:36

I hope intrusions are welcome, but have you any thoughts on House Cargyll and Goode? I understand that they're extinct in the latest bookmarks [but I mostly play the earliest ones] but they were both noble houses and contributed a number of white shields (at least 2 from each family were kingsguards). House Cargyll is represented as being a baron under Lord Rosby, which I personally don't think is fair since the Cargylls were listed as lords as well. The Goodes are represented as being landless throughout the entire game. I personally always grant them the Blue Fork. We don't know as much about them, but they were also a noble house.

I personally think that the counties in the northern crownlands are clunky as it is, perhaps one should be split to make a county for the Cargylls, sworn directly to King's Landing. Not sure who you would replace them with in later bookmarks.

As for the Goodes - I'll defer to you, but it seems like the Blue Fork county is mostly a placeholder for most of the game's history anyway.

Edit: forgot about Glendon Goode. So there were 3 Goodes in the Kings/Queensguard.
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Re: Noble Houses and Settlements/Places Relocation Project

PostPosted by Corvo the Crow » Sat May 27, 2017 15:07

Intrusions are welcome. I'll look at these houses you suggested to see if they have anything in the books that gives us an idea where they could be located, I must mention, however I only have the five ASOIAF books and TWOIAF, so even if they are mentioned but not in these books then I won't be able to get a clue on where they are.


Region: Riverlands

House: Vance of Wayfarer's Rest

Location: If a three county lordship, it should be as counties of Branstone (renamed to Wayfarer's Rest) Lolliston and Acornhall, or, though a bit less ideal, Turnbridge(Wayfarer's Rest), Branstone and Lolliston (as Acornhall)

Reason: - In addition to previous given reasons, Land where Riverrun is currently located were given to Tullys by Vances, which further supports that Vances have lands here.

"House Tully is an old noble house of First Men origin, dating back to the Age of Heroes. Ser Edmure Tully and his sons were allies of Tristifer IV Mudd, the King of the Rivers and the Hills, but the Tullys knelt to the Andal conqueror Armistead Vance after Tristifer's death. Edmure's son, Axel Tully, received land at the junction of the Red Fork and the Tumblestone, where he constructed Riverrun"
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Re: Noble Houses and Settlements/Places Relocation Project

PostPosted by Corvo the Crow » Fri Jun 09, 2017 17:50

This one isn't a relocation but I felt it'd be better to put it here than making another thread.

Region: Reach

Location: Reach should be bordered by the Blackwater Rush at places.

Reason: The Tyrells rose to power as stewards to the Kings of the Reach, whose domain included the fertile plains of the southwest from the Dornish marches and Blackwater Rush to the shores of the Sunset Sea. From ADWD Appendix.
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Re: Noble Houses and Settlements/Places Relocation Project

PostPosted by Corvo the Crow » Fri Jun 09, 2017 20:13

Region: Dorne

House: Wells

Location: County of Scourge as vassals of Yronwoods (Wyls should get the same treatment as Blackmonts)

Reason:

Quentyn Martell, is fostered by Yronwoods. Apart from Maester Kedry, his companions on his journey to slavers' bay are Two Yronwoods, A Drinkwater, vassal to Yronwoods, and a Wells. Three of the four noble companions are from Stone Way, the fourth is also likely to be a Yronwood vassal.

Map of Dorne from TWOIAF shows places on Dorne with wells, nearest Well to Yronwoods is east of Yronwood, west of Tor and north of Scourge. Scourge county is currently the only one that roughly fits the place of that well on the map.
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Re: Noble Houses and Settlements/Places Relocation Project

PostPosted by stale » Fri Jun 09, 2017 21:14

Corvo the Crow wrote:This one isn't a relocation but I felt it'd be better to put it here than making another thread.

Region: Reach

Location: Reach should be bordered by the Blackwater Rush at places.

Reason: The Tyrells rose to power as stewards to the Kings of the Reach, whose domain included the fertile plains of the southwest from the Dornish marches and Blackwater Rush to the shores of the Sunset Sea. From ADWD Appendix.



I would second this one. That whole central part of the map should probably be revisited anyway, since the Riverlands are explicitly said to border the North, Vale, Crownlands, West, and Reach.
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Re: Noble Houses and Settlements/Places Relocation Project

PostPosted by kopite » Sat Jun 10, 2017 21:47

Region:stormlands
House:connington
Location: Highlords owning the south of what is currently shipbreakers bay

Reason: People do reference the fall of power for the conningtons after Roberts rebellion where they sided against him the lord at the time was also hand of the king to arys and while you can use rheagar and their friendship as a reason would power mad arys have made a hand out of someone with such little military backing insulting those with far superior forces who he needed
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Re: Noble Houses and Settlements/Places Relocation Project

PostPosted by Corvo the Crow » Wed Jun 14, 2017 00:39

Region: Riverlands

House: Butterwell

Location: Swap it with Shoreham (Shoreham will still be bordering Sow's Horn as it should) or even better, move it to Deddington as there's no information saying Whitewalls are located on God's Eye's shores, it would still make them near God's Eye.

Reason:
In Mystery Knight, Dunk and Egg leave Stoney Sept to go see The Wall. They plan to ferry across the God's Eye (and not God's Eye River) to get on King's Road. When they learn of the wedding in Whitewalls Dunk decides to go there as they must pass by Whitewalls to reach the King's Road.

"...The innkeep never hung another sign, so men forgot the dragon and took to calling the place the River Inn. In those days, the Trident flowed beneath its back door, and half its rooms were built out over the water. Guests could throw a line out their window and catch trout, it's said. There was a ferry landing here as well, so travelers could cross to Lord Harroway's Town and Whitewalls." Harroway's Town and Whitewalls are mentioned but not Maidenpool and Harrenhal, also important places near there, which suggests Whitewalls is closer to the crossing of the Trident than the other two.

Whitewalls is closer to Maidenpool than it is to King's Landing.

Butterwells earned their riches from their herds. TWOIAF map shows cattles in three locations in Riverlands, one North of Redfork, one roughly where Atranta and Mosborough counties (which's location should also be part of Riverlands) are located and one roughly where Deddington and Shoreham counties are located.

Whitewalls is told to be near the God's Eye but there's no mention of it being on it's shores.



Region: Riverlands

House: Deddings

Location: Should be moved to Atranta or Blackrush. ( Atranta is a better bet since it is both south of the Redfork, and closer to King's Landing.


Reason: We don't know much about them but From Sandor's trial, we know they are rich, and were killed by Lannisters.

During Dance of the Dragons, there were Deddings Siblings in King's Landing.
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Re: Noble Houses and Settlements/Places Relocation Project

PostPosted by Corvo the Crow » Fri Jul 07, 2017 13:19

Region: Riverlands

Houses: Bigglestone, Perwyn, Chambers

Location: Southern Riverlands

Reason:

"Roddy the Ruin and his Winter Wolves had joined with Forrest Frey, Lord of the Crossing and Red Robb Rivers, known as the Bowman of Raventree. The northmen numbered two thousand, Frey commanded two hundred knights and thrice as many foot, Rivers brought three hundred archers to the fray. And scarce had Lord Lefford halted to confront the foe in front of him when more enemies appeared to the South, where Longleaf the Lionslayer and a ragged band of survivors from the earlier battles had been joined by the Lords Bigglestone, Chambers and Perryn."

This suggest they would have their lands in the southern parts of Riverrun.
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Re: Noble Houses and Settlements/Places Relocation Project

PostPosted by sidious307 » Fri Jul 07, 2017 17:14

it will be fun to see a sugestion about house ryger. i made a topic about that.
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Re: Noble Houses and Settlements/Places Relocation Project

PostPosted by Corvo the Crow » Sat Jul 08, 2017 16:47

sidious307 wrote:it will be fun to see a sugestion about house ryger. i made a topic about that.


I am working on them also, there isn't much on them but there's some stuff, though not directly related to it, suggesting it is probably around Harrenhal and close to crownlands and/or Bay of Crabs, so it's current location isn't far from where I believe it would be.

Just in case if you want to try to find out where they would be, below are what I've found so far:

- Their seat is called Willow Wood

- Only time I could find mentions of willow trees in Riverlands are Arya chapters when she is south of God's Eye and when Brienne and Jaime travelling with a boat on Redfork.


- Catelyn thinks of those bannerman of his father who didn't join him during Robert's Rebellion, Freys who came late and Rygers, Mootons and Darrys who joined the crown. Mootons are on Bay of Crabs and Darrys have or at least had lands near Ruby Ford, which is also close to Bay of Crabs.


- In The Princess and The Queen, Prince Aemond is said to have become the terror of trident, burning places with vhagar, vanishing and the next day striking again some place fifty leagues away. Places he attacks are Old Willow, White Willow, Hogg Hall, Merrydown Dell, Harrenhal. The lords and ladies who fear they may be attacked as well and ask for help are Mooton of Maidenpool, Darklyn of Duskendale and Blackwood of Raventree. Harrenhal, Duskendale and Maidenpool are all known places, close to each other and Raventree is also near Harrenhal from my earlier findings and as this also suggests the same. Hogg Hall likely belongs to Hoggs of Sow's Horn, perhaps Sow's Horn is built after Hogg Hall is burned. Hoggs are neighbours with Harrenhal bannermen, Wodes.

There aren't many places with "Willow" in their name in Riverlands and the above to settlement happen to be around God's Eye/Harrenhal, which are close to both Bay of Crabs, where two bannermen joined the crown and places where Willow trees are seen.
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Re: Noble Houses and Settlements/Places Relocation Project

PostPosted by sidious307 » Sat Jul 08, 2017 16:53

ha fantasic, i did a great job to house relocation. I hop knuckey will put some of them in the mod. But, revamping the map seems lot of woark and we have ck2 limitations.Normaly house ryger is directly sworn to riverun and seems to be hight lord.

The god eyes seems to be a very populated area with those nobles houses around the area.


I will post my further suggestions about house relocations here.
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