Please include these submods in the main mod

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Re: Please include these submods in the main mod

PostPosted by Shades of Darkness » Tue Apr 11, 2017 18:41

If you look at what i said before i mentioned both house Stark and house Kastark, a cadet house formed thousands of years ago they seem to have very similar features - brown hair and grey eyes / blue-grey eyes. A logical assumption is that these traits were exhibited by the original members of house Stark and passed down.
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Re: Please include these submods in the main mod

PostPosted by Kripox » Tue Apr 11, 2017 21:00

It could honestly just as well be the case that these Stark features are fairly common all over the North, which would explain where the Starks got them from in the first place. After all, the North is the only region that was never conquered by the Andals and First Man/Andal intermixing has been far less common than the rest of Westeros. It could very well be that these traits are fairly typical for the first men, but perhaps associated the most with House Stark because they are the overlords of the region and have probably been the face of the North to the rest of the continent for along time.

This explanation also actually conforms with our understanding of genetics.

That said, seeing as it is a magical world, the evidence in favor is okay enough and there are other families in Westeros that have somewhat magically looked the same for hundreds of years at the least the explanation is fine by me, though I'd prefer it if it was a game rule rather than always on. Also, these custom looks should probably be restricted to the dynasties themselves. If they can spread to other dynasties but other looks cannot spread into the great houses then their traits would quickly grow too dominant.
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Re: Please include these submods in the main mod

PostPosted by Shades of Darkness » Tue Apr 11, 2017 22:51

Kripox wrote:It could honestly just as well be the case that these Stark features are fairly common all over the North, which would explain where the Starks got them from in the first place. After all, the North is the only region that was never conquered by the Andals and First Man/Andal intermixing has been far less common than the rest of Westeros. It could very well be that these traits are fairly typical for the first men, but perhaps associated the most with House Stark because they are the overlords of the region and have probably been the face of the North to the rest of the continent for along time.

This explanation also actually conforms with our understanding of genetics.

That said, seeing as it is a magical world, the evidence in favor is okay enough and there are other families in Westeros that have somewhat magically looked the same for hundreds of years at the least the explanation is fine by me, though I'd prefer it if it was a game rule rather than always on. Also, these custom looks should probably be restricted to the dynasties themselves. If they can spread to other dynasties but other looks cannot spread into the great houses then their traits would quickly grow too dominant.


I completely agree with everything above.
The submod The Seed is Strong is awesome, but does has a few problems for example in the late game most lesser lords tend to get the custom ethnicities of the great houses. This would have to be remodeled; if it were implemented into the main mod.
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Re: Please include these submods in the main mod

PostPosted by Azsouth » Wed Apr 12, 2017 03:47

I think the fact this was taken out of the other thread and given it's own, non-stickied (or other important designation that it would stay at the top of the list) shows that the mod team does not plan to add any of the sub-mods listed here to the base game, nevermind just the seed is strong, I imagine Ninja and Knucky in a room together sharing popcorn watching you go at each other about lineages and looks.

That all being said The Seed is Strong's logic is not more of a leap in the lore as some other things that have been implemented and changed later on in the past to the base mod, so I don't quite understand why there is so much confrontation over this. I think it could be agreed that if it was made a game rules, similar to what Ninja did w/ Bloodlines where people who don't want it don't have to use it, that, that would be a fair compromise. As a result of this threads creation though I'm under no illusion that either The Seed is Strong sub-mod nor the Bloodlines Sub-mod as well as the others I listed would be included into the base mod as game rules (stuff that messes w/ looks may not even be possible to add as rules as I'm sure that would mean a lot more work for optional stuff which includes the Seed is Strong, CTO, and DLC portraits (as an example)).
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Re: Please include these submods in the main mod

PostPosted by DownTheDrain » Wed Apr 12, 2017 04:26

Azsouth wrote:That all being said The Seed is Strong's logic is not more of a leap in the lore as some other things that have been implemented and changed later on in the past to the base mod, so I don't quite understand why there is so much confrontation over this.

...

(stuff that messes w/ looks may not even be possible to add as rules as I'm sure that would mean a lot more work for optional stuff which includes the Seed is Strong, CTO, and DLC portraits (as an example))


Sorry for butchering your post but that's exactly why I'm so opposed to it, apart from not being convinced it's all that canon without a bunch of "logical assumptions" and "interpretations" that may or may not be anywhere close to the truth.

The moment you add The Seed is Strong to the base mod it most likely will become a major issue for the compatibility of all other submods that alter the portraits. Even if it can be done it will mean more work for the modders, which not all of them might be willing to put in.
For me, for instance, the DLC portrait submod is vastly superior to The Seed is Strong. However, I don't lobby to have it be part of the regular AGOT because I'm fully aware that not everyone has the necessary DLCs and that it would mess with other portrait submods.

The way it is now we can all mix and match the submods we consider most important (and that play well with each other) without anyone losing out. I really don't see how making The Seed is Strong part of the main mod and creating difficulties for everyone that prefers a different portrait submod is in any way a desirable outcome.
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Re: Please include these submods in the main mod

PostPosted by Podrick pussy killer » Wed Apr 12, 2017 05:02

Wow i simply posted this as a quick sugestion on the mod release tread hell i didn'd even tought someone would read but now not only our beloved overlord Ninja read it but he gave it an actual tread and causes some guys to argue about genetics. I love this community so much
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Re: Please include these submods in the main mod

PostPosted by Ktulu » Wed Apr 12, 2017 15:42

I love how polarized this discussion has become.

If Knuckey and Blackninja actually decide to make this dream happen without pissing off all the genetic engineers out there, the solution would be adding The Seed is Strong as a game rule.

The base mod has become so complete and detailed over the years that the existence of non-black haired Baratheons and non-blonde Lannisters in the game (and I'm not even going deeper on the matters of the other houses -that require logic deduction) is a bummer. It's just not canon.
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Re: Please include these submods in the main mod

PostPosted by DownTheDrain » Wed Apr 12, 2017 15:48

Ktulu wrote:The base mod has become so complete and detailed over the years that the existence of non-black haired Baratheons and non-blonde Lannisters in the game (and I'm not even going deeper on the matters of the other houses -that require logic deduction) is a bummer.


Assuming you're not playing on Ironman, save the game, open the file with any text editor (I recommend notepad++) and change the offending hair color to black or blonde.
I do that all the time when I end up with children that look just too derpy and it takes like a minute at most.
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Re: Please include these submods in the main mod

PostPosted by Ktulu » Wed Apr 12, 2017 16:14

DownTheDrain wrote:Assuming you're not playing on Ironman, save the game, open the file with any text editor (I recommend notepad++) and change the offending hair color to black or blonde.
I do that all the time when I end up with children that look just too derpy and it takes like a minute at most.


Are you always this petty?
Since you are clearly drifting from the discussion at hand to being just a troll, I'll just say that I play on Ironman.
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Re: Please include these submods in the main mod

PostPosted by DownTheDrain » Wed Apr 12, 2017 16:31

Ktulu wrote:
DownTheDrain wrote:Assuming you're not playing on Ironman, save the game, open the file with any text editor (I recommend notepad++) and change the offending hair color to black or blonde.
I do that all the time when I end up with children that look just too derpy and it takes like a minute at most.


Are you always this petty?
Since you are clearly drifting from the discussion at hand to being just a troll, I'll just say that I play on Ironman.


How is this being petty or trolling?
I beg your very pardon for trying to help, I'll certainly not make that mistake again.
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Re: [RELEASE] A Game of Thrones v1.4

PostPosted by KappaKid » Wed Apr 12, 2017 21:09

DownTheDrain wrote:That's basically the same stuff you've quoted before.
Unless I'm mistaken all of those sources are about the Starks of today, going back a generation or two at most. There doesn't seem to be anything in there about all Starks looking a particular way for hundreds of years as you and others have claimed.


Are you always this intentionally obtuse? Dear god man. Anyone who has read the books and some of the supplemental material knows that identifying bloodlines by the physical look of it's members is a much bigger thing than in the real world. Stop using unrelated crap like real world genetics which have absolutely nothing to do with a fantasy world with dragons and fucking magic.
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Re: [RELEASE] A Game of Thrones v1.4

PostPosted by DownTheDrain » Wed Apr 12, 2017 21:18

KappaKid wrote:
DownTheDrain wrote:That's basically the same stuff you've quoted before.
Unless I'm mistaken all of those sources are about the Starks of today, going back a generation or two at most. There doesn't seem to be anything in there about all Starks looking a particular way for hundreds of years as you and others have claimed.


Are you always this intentionally obtuse? Dear god man. Anyone who has read the books and some of the supplemental material knows that identifying bloodlines by the physical look of it's members is a much bigger thing than in the real world. Stop using unrelated crap like real world genetics which have absolutely nothing to do with a fantasy world with dragons and fucking magic.


I'm going to ignore the personal attack since that's apparently par of the course for some posters here.
Kindly point out where I so much as mentioned "unrelated crap like real world genetics", let alone used it to make a point.
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Re: Please include these submods in the main mod

PostPosted by blackninja9939 » Wed Apr 12, 2017 21:42

Alright, lets all refrain from turning this into personal attacks.

I split those posts and made this thread for you all to discuss this but I can just as quickly get rid of it :D
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Re: Please include these submods in the main mod

PostPosted by Podrick pussy killer » Wed Apr 12, 2017 22:06

blackninja9939 wrote:Alright, lets all refrain from turning this into personal attacks.

I split those posts and made this thread for you all to discuss this but I can just as quickly get rid of it :D

You are ruthless but just your grace
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Re: Please include these submods in the main mod

PostPosted by Ktulu » Wed Apr 12, 2017 23:13

blackninja9939 wrote:Alright, lets all refrain from turning this into personal attacks.

I split those posts and made this thread for you all to discuss this but I can just as quickly get rid of it :D


True!

Let's get back to the matter at hand and discuss the importance of dynastic looks.

I'm sure there are some people here who just want to set this thread on fire so it gets closed (this way their personal agenda might be fulfilled and the subject closed for good), but let's keep on-topic, please.

Don't feed the trolls, guys.

That being said, I'd like to seize the opportunity of your attention, Blackninja, and respectfully ask you to analyse what myself and others have said about the dynastic appearances and, if you please, consider the possibility of setting this as a game rule. You would surely make a lot of people happy.

Kind regards
Last edited by Ktulu on Wed Apr 12, 2017 23:15, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Please include these submods in the main mod

PostPosted by KappaKid » Wed Apr 12, 2017 23:14

I don't consider calling somebody out for being obtuse a personal attack, I don't even use the submod in question but all I see from you is a chain of comments constantly arguing against an idea that is made pretty clear to any reader of GoT. The idea that people of certain bloodlines tend to look extremely similar even over the course of hundreds of years, something that is obviously not the case in our world.
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Re: Please include these submods in the main mod

PostPosted by blackninja9939 » Wed Apr 12, 2017 23:45

I prefer to see you guys discuss it and give varied views otherwise my opinion will just not change if I say yes/no as no more discussion comes from it once a final answer is given. And lets be honest there is no real right or wrong answer as none of us are GRRM.
Also this thread can be used for more than just the Seed is Strong discussion, if you feel any other submods should be included then talk about them as well!
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Re: Please include these submods in the main mod

PostPosted by DownTheDrain » Wed Apr 12, 2017 23:55

blackninja9939 wrote:I prefer to see you guys discuss it and give varied views otherwise my opinion will just not change if I say yes/no as no more discussion comes from it once a final answer is given. And lets be honest there is no real right or wrong answer as none of us are GRRM.


Since I'm not particularly interested in continuing to argue only to be called a troll or obtuse again, if this were to be implemented would it be possible to make it a game option and would turning off that game option minimize any conflict with other portrait mods?
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Re: Please include these submods in the main mod

PostPosted by foxwillow » Wed Apr 12, 2017 23:58

holy crap, ya'll nuts.

the fact that with one marriage the "stark look" got shit-canned into being the "tully look" lays credence to the fact that these "house traits" are malleable, and hereditary appearances probably at least somewhat mirror reality.

the political power of being a major house has nothing to do with your genes, so it would be highly unlikely that the lowborns of the realm fell under the scope of typical heredity, but the nobles arbitrarily passed only their own appearance to their child, somehow regardless of whether or not two nobles mated. it's far more likely that after 1000+ years of intermarrying with regional families, people of each region would have a general "look" to them.

unless there is just magic blood that comes into people's bodies whenever they spend their first night at the helm of a castle, cursing/blessing all your descendants to share your exact appearance. in which case, catelyn is a whore and ned was the father figure to a bunch of kids who weren't his.

the most glaring in-lore example of heredity basically working similar to real life is ned, cat, and their children. if there was indeed an absolute certainty that kids had to share the dynasty traits of one parent or something, many people before ned would have gotten on the "something is amiss" train. if it was actually in-lore common knowledge that baratheons literally needed to have black hair, cersei would have been killed off upon joffrey's birth.

the logic of heredity -- even in a fantasy world -- aside,

the mod kinda breaks the game, making it super obvious who is and isnt a bastard, etc. and the only trait added is to the baratheons, so it's not like there's a whole hoopla of awesome stuff. if you like it, great, use it, but this discussion is very silly for a whole side of the discussion to just be conveniently forgetting that catelyn popped out a bunch of red-headed starks.
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Re: Please include these submods in the main mod

PostPosted by Kripox » Thu Apr 13, 2017 00:35

I agree for the most part.

Still, because arguing is fun, we have a good reason to believe the noble houses of Westeros indeed have magical properties that separate them from the smallfolk. What signs do we have for this? That some of these houses are thousands if years old. House Stark is, what, 8000 years old or so? That is impossible. Even if you assume that every once in a while an outsider simply married into the family and took on the Stark name to carry on the family or such, a quick glance at real world history shows that a family that remains mostly a continuous line through thousands of hears with uninterrupted political control of a region/state spanning that entire time is absolute hogwash. Nothing like that has happened anywhere in real history.

And House Stark is not alone. I can name several houses that have existed for millennia. House Gardener had existed for about as long as house Stark until they were destroyed 300 years ago, and several other houses in the reach are supposedly as old or just a generation or 2 younger. House Durrandon was similar in age to Gardener before its fall. Any of the dozens of houses that were originally first men houses are necessarily thousands of years old. Lannister is about Stark age as well from what I gather. Some houses are supposedly even older. Like what.

This is especially bad because infant deaths, the occasional plague, war, famine and other devastation has been constants throughout Westeros's history, and the great houses have been at the forefront. Any modern house of truly great age has survived dozens of wars against them.

This is absolute nonsense in the real world and the only proper explanation for it is that there is an inherent magic in the world that makes the noble houses endure events no house should ever be able to.

Well that or their long histories are lies they tell to justify their supremacy, but hey that explanatipn is boring.
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