1.4.1 - Is It Better to Stay Valyrian As Aegon Now?

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1.4.1 - Is It Better to Stay Valyrian As Aegon Now?

PostPosted by ManicMayo » Sun May 21, 2017 18:15

With the recent changes to the Valyrian religion, I was wondering if there is any reason to adopt Faith of the Seven (or any other religion) as Aegon when conquering Westeros?

The Valyrian religion now provides a +10 opinion modifier with all religions. The syncretic faith decision provides a further +10 opinion modifier with a religious group of your choosing, completely offsetting the -20 'foreign religion' modifier. You still get the -10 'foreigner' malus but, being High Valyrian, you would still have it even if you converted to The Seven.

This means that one can completely offset the opinion malus with non-zealous characters of The Seven and only suffer a -10 opinion malus with Drowned God characters instead of the -20 you would suffer if you converted to Faith of the Seven.

You no longer need to be Faith of the Seven/Knight to join the Kingsguard. While you do get a rather considerable opinion malus for appointing 'foreign' members to the Kingsguard (even with other foreigners), this seems to wear off relatively quickly and wouldn't have any consequences in the long run.

Being of the Valyrian faith provides a bonus to taming dragons and (from what I've seen) you can marry characters from lesser dynasties and even lowborns without a prestige penalty, allowing you to marry into other High Valyrian families such as the Velaryons to retain your Valyrian features without having to sacrifice prestige. But then you would never need to marry outside of your family anyway if you are Valyrian, polygamous unions ensure you always have a spare sister-aunt (or two... or three) for your heir to marry.

Other than being able to grant/receive knighthoods and becoming homosexual/being skewered at tourneys, are there any real benefits to abandoning the religion of your ancestral homeland? Sure, you can't marry your non-Valyrian vassals but then why would you ever need alliances when you can answer any threat to your rule with fire and blood?

I'm not having a go, I personally love the changes to the Valyrian religion and to the mod in general in 1.4.1. I was just wondering if Faith of the Seven is still the logical choice when conquering the Seven Kingdoms as Aegon or if staying Valyrian actually benefits you in the long run.
Last edited by ManicMayo on Sun May 21, 2017 18:49, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 1.4.1 - Is It Better to Stay Valyrian As Aegon Now?

PostPosted by DownTheDrain » Sun May 21, 2017 18:48

ManicMayo wrote:But then you would never need to marry outside of your family anyway if you are Valyrian, polygamous unions ensure you always have a spare sister-aunt (or two... or three) for your heir to marry.


It be better be 3 spare sisters or aunts since having less than 3 wives gets you a prestige hit.

Of course that wouldn't matter for Aegon, any other Targaryen or similarly powerful Valyrians, but as a lower ranked character it kinda sucks.
I tried a playthrough as a custom created High Valyrian lord and my marriage options were incredibly limited. Even with unrestricted marriages the AI usually refused and even other lowly Westeros lords with plenty of male heirs wouldn't agree to a match because they preferred a matrilineal marriage. If it wasn't for Volantis my only option would have been barony level brides or my own courtiers.
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Re: 1.4.1 - Is It Better to Stay Valyrian As Aegon Now?

PostPosted by Enriador » Sun May 21, 2017 21:09

The OP raises a very good question. Aegon converted to the Faith for a well-known reason: to make the Andal elite like him more and to get legitimacy with the High Septon's blessing.

If the Conqueror can get all this while clinging to his dead faith, something is very weird lorewise. I have done an epic playthrough as Aegon once where I never converted away from Valyrian. It was quite bothersome putting down the rebellions, but with Fire and Blood I finally managed to put Targaryens everywhere in Westeros.

In short: remove that automatic +10 opinion modifier. Perharps make it lose Prestige - Valyrian IS completely dead in the lore after all, no one anywhere gave a care for fallen gods of a fallen civilization.

EDIT: My Aegon playthrough happened way before that bonus was added. I just gave an example on how it's not impossible to keep Valyrian faith while ruling Westeros, even without any bonuses.
Last edited by Enriador on Wed May 24, 2017 16:12, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 1.4.1 - Is It Better to Stay Valyrian As Aegon Now?

PostPosted by Soulbourne » Sun May 21, 2017 21:37

Turneys for prestige and gold, alongside knighthood for minor combat bonuses. But yes, the faith of the seven doesn't offer too many benefits over the valyrian religion now it can be argued, except in case of zealous folks. There's some flavor events I suppose, plus the benefit of the actual moral authority possibly making life more stable. But beyond that not a ton of benefits I can think of directly.

Sadly, the high septom and faith of the seven in general aren't quite as fleshy as say catholicism in base game or even rhollor in essos I'd argue. And since dragons are your main power, there's very little reason not to give your dynasty more chances to successfully utilize them.
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Re: 1.4.1 - Is It Better to Stay Valyrian As Aegon Now?

PostPosted by DownTheDrain » Sun May 21, 2017 21:39

Enriador wrote:In short: remove that automatic +10 opinion modifier. Perharps make it lose Prestige - Valyrian IS completely dead in the lore after all, no one anywhere gave a care for fallen gods of a fallen civilization.


Personally, I think it's fine as it is now.
Since the last update I started 2 games in the conquest bookmark and both times (AI) Aegon converted. I don't think I've ever seen anyone important converting to Valyrian faith either, so the dead religion pretty much stays dead unless the player does something about it. As long as the AI mostly sticks to the lore it can't hurt to give players more options in my opinion.
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Re: 1.4.1 - Is It Better to Stay Valyrian As Aegon Now?

PostPosted by blackninja9939 » Sun May 21, 2017 22:13

Hmmm good point, my intention with it was to negate the opinion penalties but that obviously presents a big balance issue with Aegon compared to Volantis which was my key reason for doing it.
I will have a look at balancing it, removing the passive +10 modifier is probably the best way to do it as I can't think of any alternatives off the top of my head that would work to keep Volantis stable whilst also not making it to OP for Aegon.
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Re: 1.4.1 - Is It Better to Stay Valyrian As Aegon Now?

PostPosted by Valor1 » Sun May 21, 2017 23:36

blackninja9939 wrote:Hmmm good point, my intention with it was to negate the opinion penalties but that obviously presents a big balance issue with Aegon compared to Volantis which was my key reason for doing it.
I will have a look at balancing it, removing the passive +10 modifier is probably the best way to do it as I can't think of any alternatives off the top of my head that would work to keep Volantis stable whilst also not making it to OP for Aegon.


Just remove the +10 passive for the faith of the seven and old gods.
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Re: 1.4.1 - Is It Better to Stay Valyrian As Aegon Now?

PostPosted by Kripox » Mon May 22, 2017 01:14

Enriador wrote:In short: remove that automatic +10 opinion modifier. Perharps make it lose Prestige - Valyrian IS completely dead in the lore after all, no one anywhere gave a care for fallen gods of a fallen civilization.


The vayrian faith is not dead, it is still practiced among te old blood of volantis and some people living in the stil habitable borderlans surrounding valyria. Besides it makes no sense that you would lose prestige for holding that faith imo. Valyria an al that is valyrian is still highly regarded in both essos and westeros, and i would imagine that while people would not buy into their faith it would likely seem rather exoctic, mysterious and noble to them, as everything else from valyria tends to be. Additionally there seem to be reatively little religious unrest in the series and also a low amount of religious discrimination, so again, seems unfitting.
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Re: 1.4.1 - Is It Better to Stay Valyrian As Aegon Now?

PostPosted by TMLC » Mon May 22, 2017 02:12

Valor1 wrote:
blackninja9939 wrote:Hmmm good point, my intention with it was to negate the opinion penalties but that obviously presents a big balance issue with Aegon compared to Volantis which was my key reason for doing it.
I will have a look at balancing it, removing the passive +10 modifier is probably the best way to do it as I can't think of any alternatives off the top of my head that would work to keep Volantis stable whilst also not making it to OP for Aegon.


Just remove the +10 passive for the faith of the seven and old gods.


Or keep it just for R'hllor.
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Re: 1.4.1 - Is It Better to Stay Valyrian As Aegon Now?

PostPosted by Soulbourne » Mon May 22, 2017 11:48

I'd say it'd make sense to at least keep it for all the free city religious group since several are actually offshoots of the valyrian faith(Such as the bearded priests) and the others were heavily syncrentic with old valyria for who knows how long.
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Re: 1.4.1 - Is It Better to Stay Valyrian As Aegon Now?

PostPosted by salatrin » Tue May 23, 2017 06:38

Another issue ive found with it is that your syncretic faith that you choose stays with you no matter what.

An example, your Aegon conquering Westeros, u choose the syncretic faith option for Westerosi gods to get an additional +10 opinion with the seven, but then when the event comes up to convert to the seven and you accept, you are a member of the faith of the seven yourself, therefore negating the negative modifier for being of a different religion but you ALSO keep the additional +10 from all of the seven faithful within Westeros til the day you die, even though you are of the seven faith yourself.
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Re: 1.4.1 - Is It Better to Stay Valyrian As Aegon Now?

PostPosted by tirion1987 » Wed May 24, 2017 15:48

blackninja9939 wrote:Hmmm good point, my intention with it was to negate the opinion penalties but that obviously presents a big balance issue with Aegon compared to Volantis which was my key reason for doing it.
I will have a look at balancing it, removing the passive +10 modifier is probably the best way to do it as I can't think of any alternatives off the top of my head that would work to keep Volantis stable whilst also not making it to OP for Aegon.

Give some vassal opinion boost to the Triarchy government form instead of their religion.
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Re: 1.4.1 - Is It Better to Stay Valyrian As Aegon Now?

PostPosted by Enriador » Thu May 25, 2017 01:04

Kripox wrote:
Enriador wrote:In short: remove that automatic +10 opinion modifier. Perharps make it lose Prestige - Valyrian IS completely dead in the lore after all, no one anywhere gave a care for fallen gods of a fallen civilization.


The vayrian faith is not dead, it is still practiced among te old blood of volantis and some people living in the stil habitable borderlans surrounding valyria. Besides it makes no sense that you would lose prestige for holding that faith imo. Valyria an al that is valyrian is still highly regarded in both essos and westeros, and i would imagine that while people would not buy into their faith it would likely seem rather exoctic, mysterious and noble to them, as everything else from valyria tends to be. Additionally there seem to be reatively little religious unrest in the series and also a low amount of religious discrimination, so again, seems unfitting.


According to the wiki, the dragonlords " regarded all faiths as equally false, and looked down on clergy and temples as relics of more primitive times but useful to placate the lower classes with promises of a better life to come after death."
(http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Va ... d#Religion)

Hardly a show of the power of faith.

In Volantis, "Many inside the Black Walls keep the old gods of Valyria, but R'hllor is favored outside the Black Walls, both by slaves and freedmen."

You see, there are "many" who keep these gods - probably more for tradition than true faith - which implies that there are noblemen in Volantis who DON'T FOLLOW THE OLD FAITH AT ALL. Why would the Volantene nobility care more for gods that the Valyrians themselves ignored?

Perharps the Prestige hit is too much; just removing one of their bonuses (either the automatic or the syncretic one) would work just as well. The AI will convert away for sure, but for us players we should also get balance beyond roleplay - otherwise no one is ever going to do the canonical thing and convert to the local faiths.
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Re: 1.4.1 - Is It Better to Stay Valyrian As Aegon Now?

PostPosted by ManicMayo » Thu May 25, 2017 18:11

My personal opinion is that the religions that were historically persecuted by the Valyrians, namely Faith of the Seven and Mother Rhoyne, should get an opinion MALUS instead of bonus as a sort of 'historical grievances' modifier. Perhaps even remove them from the syncretic faith decision or make the malus so harsh that all making them a syncretic faith would do is negate it, still leaving them with the -20 foreign religion modifier. The latter option would be better as it could be used to simulate intolerance for Mother Rhoyne without having to remove the Eastern religious group, which contains historically tolerated religions such as R'hllor, from the syncretic faith decision.

This way, a Valyrian ruler in Essos can still enjoy the tolerance bonus with religions they historically co-existed peacefully with under the old Freehold whilst a Valyrian ruler in Westeros would now have much more of an incentive to convert to a local religion.

While this would still mean that Valyrian rulers have less of an opinion malus with Drowned God characters, they make up such a small amount of your vassals and potential manpower that it would make little sense to remain Valyrian just to appease them at the expense of your relations with the rest of Westeros.
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Re: 1.4.1 - Is It Better to Stay Valyrian As Aegon Now?

PostPosted by Rand al'Thor » Mon May 29, 2017 03:47

Ok first of all in regards to this I have to ask, on what basis does the "Syncretic Faith" stand? I understand the basis for the passive +10 because of religious tolerance, but what evidence is there of the Valyrian's partially adopting a faith or faith group. It's seems they just regarded them all as bogus and allowed the less enlightened plebeians to worship whatever gods they wanted without persecution or attempts at proselytize them, thus the passive +10 to all faiths. So based on what I know, it seems the syncretism is the thing to get rid of if we're just dropping things. And due to some religions having been in closer contact with Valyria for longer, such as Rhllorism, maybe some have a higher bonus(like +15 or something), if that covers the Volantis problem. Versus Faith of the Seven only gets the +10.

Also I don't know what the Valyrian religions proselytize base chances are, but maybe they could be lowered to further represent their religious tolerances/apathy.
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Re: 1.4.1 - Is It Better to Stay Valyrian As Aegon Now?

PostPosted by Croix129 » Sat Jul 08, 2017 22:05

Enriador wrote:
Kripox wrote:
Enriador wrote:In short: remove that automatic +10 opinion modifier. Perharps make it lose Prestige - Valyrian IS completely dead in the lore after all, no one anywhere gave a care for fallen gods of a fallen civilization.


The vayrian faith is not dead, it is still practiced among te old blood of volantis and some people living in the stil habitable borderlans surrounding valyria. Besides it makes no sense that you would lose prestige for holding that faith imo. Valyria an al that is valyrian is still highly regarded in both essos and westeros, and i would imagine that while people would not buy into their faith it would likely seem rather exoctic, mysterious and noble to them, as everything else from valyria tends to be. Additionally there seem to be reatively little religious unrest in the series and also a low amount of religious discrimination, so again, seems unfitting.


According to the wiki, the dragonlords " regarded all faiths as equally false, and looked down on clergy and temples as relics of more primitive times but useful to placate the lower classes with promises of a better life to come after death."
(http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Va ... d#Religion)

Hardly a show of the power of faith.

In Volantis, "Many inside the Black Walls keep the old gods of Valyria, but R'hllor is favored outside the Black Walls, both by slaves and freedmen."

You see, there are "many" who keep these gods - probably more for tradition than true faith - which implies that there are noblemen in Volantis who DON'T FOLLOW THE OLD FAITH AT ALL. Why would the Volantene nobility care more for gods that the Valyrians themselves ignored?

Perharps the Prestige hit is too much; just removing one of their bonuses (either the automatic or the syncretic one) would work just as well. The AI will convert away for sure, but for us players we should also get balance beyond roleplay - otherwise no one is ever going to do the canonical thing and convert to the local faiths.


OK that isn't the best source lore-wise over the Valyrians. That source from the World of Ice and Fire, written by a Westerosi Maester who follows the Faith of the Seven. Its like taking the opinion of a medieval French Clergyman on the Roman Imperial cult or the Persian Zoroastrian religion at face value. The Valyrians probably looked down on all other religions other than their own, but its highly unlikely that the Dragonlords were atheists.

As for the Volantenes, that also doesn't seem right. Sounds to me what's in Volantis is similar to the Western Roman Empire during the 4th century: the elite remained Pagan while the lower classes were converting to Christianity.

ManicMayo wrote:My personal opinion is that the religions that were historically persecuted by the Valyrians, namely Faith of the Seven and Mother Rhoyne, should get an opinion MALUS instead of bonus as a sort of 'historical grievances' modifier. Perhaps even remove them from the syncretic faith decision or make the malus so harsh that all making them a syncretic faith would do is negate it, still leaving them with the -20 foreign religion modifier. The latter option would be better as it could be used to simulate intolerance for Mother Rhoyne without having to remove the Eastern religious group, which contains historically tolerated religions such as R'hllor, from the syncretic faith decision.

This way, a Valyrian ruler in Essos can still enjoy the tolerance bonus with religions they historically co-existed peacefully with under the old Freehold whilst a Valyrian ruler in Westeros would now have much more of an incentive to convert to a local religion.

While this would still mean that Valyrian rulers have less of an opinion malus with Drowned God characters, they make up such a small amount of your vassals and potential manpower that it would make little sense to remain Valyrian just to appease them at the expense of your relations with the rest of Westeros.


There's no proof whatsoever of Valyrian religious persecution against either the Faith of the Seven or the Mother Rhoyne. We have no idea what Valyrian-Westerosi relations looked like before the Doom and the Valyrian-Rhoynish wars were over territory and trade; religion was never mentioned as a reason.
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Re: 1.4.1 - Is It Better to Stay Valyrian As Aegon Now?

PostPosted by Enriador » Mon Jul 10, 2017 03:13

Don't get too deep into the immersion of the authors' prose. It's as close to a canon as possible.

Nowhere else we see an affirmation that anyone still follow the gods of Valyria, actually. If we don't consider the "maester" 's word on it, then perhaps all Valyrian characters should be purged from the game.

I vote on letting it be a smaller and niche religion just for the roleplay value.
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