Here's How To Fix Craziness/Nonsense/Realm Falling Apart (Make Things More Realistic)

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Here's How To Fix Craziness/Nonsense/Realm Falling Apart (Make Things More Realistic)

PostPosted by IStareAtVirtualMaps » Wed Aug 09, 2017 02:24

We all know that after a few decades in game everything falls apart - titles held for thousands of years get revoked, granted to wildlings and foreigners, crazy bordergore, etc etc etc.

After studying and experimenting, I'm pretty sure I've figured out how to eliminate the vast majority of this. Please give your feedback and add any ideas you have (This is why I'm posting this here, most people don't go in the suggestion subforum)

Before I get to the suggestions for the devs and for modders, I'll start with things you as the player can already do to greatly reduce this. If you don't care about this, skip this section.

THINGS YOU CAN ALREADY DO:

These are game rules changes. Pick a bookmark then pick a character and click play to get to the game rule screen. Besides these changes, the defaults are a mixture of things that are your preference and things that should NOT be changed. I will list which ones are your preference at the bottom of this section. Start from the default rules, then change only the rules below and the ones I list as your preference further below. You can get the to the default rules by pressing the red reset button in between "save" and "load".

----------Set Non-Epidemic diseases to "fewer"
Houses constantly go extinct because way too many people randomly get cancer, pox, etc. This game rule reduces this.
---------Set Shattered Retreat to "off"
Wars take forever without this. Use this setting.
---------Set De Jure Requirment to "required"
This destroys titles if the holder doesn't actually have any dejure land in their realm. For example, if the stepstones are all independent counties, the magister of lys can't have the high lordship of the southern stepstones
---------Set Culture Conversion to "rare"
In lore, cultures seem to be pretty stable. This rule reduces conversion rates in game.
---------Set Religious Conversion Speed to "slower"
Same as above
---------Set Adventures to "rare"
Adventures can be ridiculous in the game. For example, Kevan lannister will attack the iron throne to press his claim on the Westerlands and usurp it from his friend and brother Tywin. This setting reduces this silliness.
---------Set Diplomatic Range to "restricted"
Characters can interact with other characters that are way too far away. This causes way too many foreigners in your realm and strange marriages. This game rule halves interaction distance and keeps things more realistic.
---------Set Provincial Revolts to "rare"
Random revolts from unlanded characters happen way too often. This setting reduces these.
---------Set Non-Lore invasions to "rare" or "off"
These invasions happens way too often (Particularly the Mountain Clansmen one, might be a bug). Use whichever setting you prefer. I use rare to keep things interesting.
---------Set Dragon Hatching & Taming to "hard"
If you play in a scenario with lots of dragons (for example the rogue prince bookmark) you will notice random lowborn nobodies taming dragons. These people have absolutely no traits that help taming, not even brave or quick, the only thing they have that helps taming is their Valyrian culture group (Not even High Valyrian). You will see a lot of lowborn nobodies with Elyrian or Mantaryan culture taming dragons. This settings vastly reduces this.
---------Set Duel Outcome Randomness to "low"
Duels are too random, you will see bad warriors killing people way better than themselves. This setting reduces this.
---------Set Fabricating Claims to "off"
This is probably the most IMPORTANT thing you can do. Considering the same houses hold the same titles for thousands of years, fabricating claims is ridiculous and leads to all kinds of craziness in your games

Besides the rules I listed above, Most of the default rules are VITAL to enhancing realism and reducing craziness. However, there are a few that are your preference. I will list them here, along with my own favorite settings:

YOUR PREFERENCE: Dance of Dragons Spoiler Remover: Off(default), R+L=J: On, Major Epidemics: Dynamic(default), Sunset Invasion: Off, De Jure Assimilation Duration: Short, Release Prisoners After Punishment: Off, White Walkers: Harder, Battlefield Duel Occurrence: Normal(default)

Remember, reset your rules to start from default, then only change the "your preference" rules I just listed and the changes I listed above that. Changing anything else will hurt realism and cause nonsense/craziness. Also, make sure to SAVE your rules to a slot once you are done changing them. When you start a new game make sure to click LOAD on that slot.

*************************SUGGESTIONS FOR MODDERS AND THE DEVS*************************

Here's what most of you are probably here for. I feel that these changes are very important. Devs, please read all of them :D . The explanations can be very long, if you are in a hurry, skip them and just read the lines that start with ---------- .

********************

Houses constantly go extinct or have their titles passed to other houses. This is caused by lack of heirs or heir's heir is of another house. Thus, my suggestions:

----------If AI has no heir of their house, make an event that forces them to take "have children" ambition and possibly even divorce/murder wife if she is past 40 and/or has low fertility. OR allow them to adopt an heir. OR if they have alive children of another house have one of them (who is not heir to a title nor who's other parent is heir to a title) change dynasty as so to continue the line. (These last 2 options are the only option if lord is old infertile woman)

----------If AI has heir who is childless, but in a marriage that produces children of another house, make an event that disinherits that heir in favor of another OR if no good heir is available, divorce/murder that heir's spouse

----------If AI has heir who has heir of another house, make an event that disinherits that heir in favor of another OR if no good heir is available, have heir's heir change to their dynasty (As long has they are not heir to another title or has their other parent heir to another title).

********************

Another problem causer: plots. AI in general plot way too much (especially kidnapping random children). Also, an AI lord will pretty much never command someone to stop a plot, idk why. Example: Play a game of a couple years, then console command play as the king on the iron throne. He will be aware of 100+ plots (some of which are very damaging to the realm and have high plot power) and he will not stop them. You can fix this by console command playing as a ruler, unchecking and rechecking the "autostop plots' box, then console command play back to your character.

HOWEVER, this cause even more problems. As the player, autostop plots does nothing if the AI will not accept your demand to stop. BUT if you have switched to an AI, check the box for them, then switch back to your character, they will send demands to stop plots to EVERYONE. This is good, right? It should be, but is not because most of the time the AI plotter will refuse to stop plotting. What this does is give the liege who demanded the vassal or subject to stop plotting an imprisonment reason. The AI will then pretty much always choose to imprison. Imprisonments aren't always successful, so when they fail on a landed lord, that lord revolts. If the liege wins he then gets a valid revoke reason, which the AI does almost always. Does this sound like a crazy, unlikely scenario? It isn't. If I play normally, the realm falls apart from plotting. So instead before I start playing I uncheck and recheck the "autostop plots" box for the king and all the lord paramounts. But then the scenario I described above constantly happens, there are constant revolts, and constant revokes. King and lord paramounts will end up with a ton of titles and will grant them randomly if they go over demesne limit.

*****EDIT: I wan't to make it clear that random revokes are also a problem. Even without checking "autostop plots" for any AI characters, there will still be lots of revolts and revokes caused by failed imprisonments. Many these are caused by plotters refusing to stop plotting, but also caused by other reasons, mainly the intrigue focus I think.

SO, here are my suggestions to fix these:

----------Make AI in general much less likely to plot

----------Force all AI rulers to always autostop all plots

----------Force AI to accept demand to stop plotting if the person who demanded it has the power to imprison them (Their liege or liege's liege). Perhaps allow them to keep plotting if they are more powerful than their liege, but make this very unlikely.

----------There is an event where someone with the intrigue focus gives false information to their liege about someone else, giving their liege imprisonment reason on that person. Reduce the chance of that event popping on highborn characters, especially landed lords. When it does pop, reduce chance of liege accepting that information. Then reduce chance of AI lieges imprisoning landed people.

----------When AI liege has landed vassal imprisoned, VASTLY reduce chance of them revoking title. Increase chance of them sending the person to the wall or executing them instead.

********************

Vassal are constantly attacking eachother in claim wars. Also, the AI liege rarely commands them to stop these wars. I thought about disallowing claims to pass through women, but then I realized they are still useful if ruler dies and inheritance is in question / granting titles. So, here are my best suggestions:

----------Bring back "King's Peace" law. Make it in effect and unchangeable for the iron throne king and the lord paramounts. This will stop vassals from attacking eachother in wars, except for revolts (I'm pretty sure)

----------Still allow vassals to revolt against their liege, but VASTLY increase chance of higher liege commanding rebel to end war. The only time they should NOT do this is if they 1) really dislike the rebel's liege, and 2) really like the rebel, or if it's a claimant war, they really like the claimant.

*******************

Smaller problem than others: When you are lord paramount, your crown laws are invisible (It says crown laws of iron throne apply) However, AI lord paramounts can change their invisible crown laws. If they are near vassal limit and increase crown laws, this reduces vassal limit and they go over. The AI doesn't like being over vassal limit, so to fix this they will transfer vassal counts to vassal dukes, even if those dukes are not dejure lieges of the counts and even if the duke and count are FAR away from each other. You see this scenario often in the reach, because reach lord paramounts are always very close to vassal limit. To fix:

----------Stop AI lord paramounts from increasing invisible crown laws. If this is impossible, then increase vassal limits for lord paramounts

********************

That's all I can think of for now. This post is a work in progress
Last edited by IStareAtVirtualMaps on Wed Aug 09, 2017 14:26, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Here's How To Fix Craziness/Nonsense/Realm Falling Apart (Make Things More Realistic)

PostPosted by Pekay » Wed Aug 09, 2017 09:52

That's very informative, thanks for your effort!

I would agree with most of your game rule settings, especially the Fabricating Claims rule. Made very good experiences with Fabricating Claims off, too. There's one thing I would add: Turn the Dynastic Stability game rule on. It is something that happens in lore too and keeps the great houses alive. It's somewhat annoying to see the Hardyngs rule the Vale after Robert Arryn's death in ACoK/AFfC bookmarks when the ruling Hardyngs would take on the Arryn house in lore.
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Re: Here's How To Fix Craziness/Nonsense/Realm Falling Apart (Make Things More Realistic)

PostPosted by IStareAtVirtualMaps » Wed Aug 09, 2017 14:15

Yes I've thought about using that one. That's the last rule I have to experiment with, I've never used it myself and so I don't know how it works/how well it works. I'll look into it.

@knuckey, your thoughts on the suggestions I made?

If you don't feel like making a detailed reply at least let me know you read the damn thing :P
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Re: Here's How To Fix Craziness/Nonsense/Realm Falling Apart (Make Things More Realistic)

PostPosted by Humboldt » Wed Aug 09, 2017 17:02

IStareAtVirtualMaps wrote:---------Set Fabricating Claims to "off"
This is probably the most IMPORTANT thing you can do. Considering the same houses hold the same titles for thousands of years, fabricating claims is ridiculous and leads to all kinds of craziness in your games


Houses holding the same titles for thousands of years is one of the more ridiculous aspects of asoiaf.

I like to think that once the game starts the old rules no longer apply due to the changes during the 300 year period from Aegon's Landing to the War of the Five Kings.

The only thing I change is set vassal limit to unlimted so that the King on the Iron Throne doesn't make dumb vassalage changes in order to stay under the limit.
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Re: Here's How To Fix Craziness/Nonsense/Realm Falling Apart (Make Things More Realistic)

PostPosted by StoneWallace17 » Wed Aug 09, 2017 21:41

I'd very much like to try playing like this but, I rely on fabricating claims way too much.
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Re: Here's How To Fix Craziness/Nonsense/Realm Falling Apart (Make Things More Realistic)

PostPosted by IStareAtVirtualMaps » Thu Aug 10, 2017 00:34

Humboldt wrote:Houses holding the same titles for thousands of years is one of the more ridiculous aspects of asoiaf.

I like to think that once the game starts the old rules no longer apply due to the changes during the 300 year period from Aegon's Landing to the War of the Five Kings.

The only thing I change is set vassal limit to unlimted so that the King on the Iron Throne doesn't make dumb vassalage changes in order to stay under the limit.


Well what I've noticed is that lords will get claims on smaller lord's titles (throughtheir mothers or from fabricating) and then declare war on them and conquer them while the liege doesn't care. After a few decades you have lords with multiple titles halfway accross the realm, etc. Not very realistic to me

For me the king usually never even comes close to his vassal limit... Kings holding lord paramount titles in your games?

StoneWallace17 wrote:I'd very much like to try playing like this but, I rely on fabricating claims way too much.


More fun to murder your way to the top IMO :twisted:
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Re: Here's How To Fix Craziness/Nonsense/Realm Falling Apart (Make Things More Realistic)

PostPosted by Humboldt » Thu Aug 10, 2017 13:21

Well reality is pretty much always more chaotic and interesting than fantasy.

And yeah kings regularly go over their vassal limits after revoking lord paramouncies after revolts.
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Re: Here's How To Fix Craziness/Nonsense/Realm Falling Apart (Make Things More Realistic)

PostPosted by Tanitanino » Thu Aug 10, 2017 16:40

Interesting suggestions - these are the same reasons I stop playing CK2 after awhile!
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Re: Here's How To Fix Craziness/Nonsense/Realm Falling Apart (Make Things More Realistic)

PostPosted by Enriador » Thu Aug 10, 2017 23:45

The EXCLAVE INDEPENDENCE mod on the Workshop is a must if you wish to end border gore. It does not solve the issue of houses dying, but at least borders get cool after a while thanks to it.
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Re: Here's How To Fix Craziness/Nonsense/Realm Falling Apart (Make Things More Realistic)

PostPosted by Meroit » Sun Aug 13, 2017 09:19

I have solution about revoking title.
Just need:
1. find defines.lua in /mod/game of thrones/common/
2. search REVOKE_TITLE_INTERACTION_ENABLED string
3. change 1 to 0 and save file
Now nobody can revoke title from vassal in game under no circumstances.
P.S. Sorry for my English, if I wrote something wrong.
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Re: Here's How To Fix Craziness/Nonsense/Realm Falling Apart (Make Things More Realistic)

PostPosted by TheCed » Sun Aug 13, 2017 12:14

By the way, is there a way to fix those secret marriages? It's always annoying to see courtiers get married when you don't want them to.
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Re: Here's How To Fix Craziness/Nonsense/Realm Falling Apart (Make Things More Realistic)

PostPosted by Demantiae » Thu Aug 17, 2017 13:18

The problem is more serious than relying on using the game start tweaks. Since playing 1.5 (I hadn't played for nearly a year prior) I've made extensive use of these options, selecting almost the settup described above (save for the non-contagious illness thing which I hadn't considered might help). It hasn't really helped much (I guess it has, the games would be much worse without those options chosen but undesirable scenario's still occurred). I've played 3 games so far, all in the new Bleeding Years sub-scenario - Tommen Lannister, one of the Dornish bannermen and Aerion, the Dragonrider who wants to take Volantis. In all three games Westerosi politics have been a mess. Kings and their lineages are getting whipped out all over the place. I've seen the main Lannister line go extinct and the Lannisport Lannisters take the crown, the Gardeners go extinct and the bastard scion of House Oldflowers take the crown and rivert back to Gardener. I've seen House Jordayne take Dorne as the Martels went extinct and I've seen the Starks disappear, be replaced by the Karstarks as rulers of Winterfel and then also revert back to a Stark name. The only one of those in which I had any interaction was as the Lannisters where I got to conquer the Oldflower Gardeners, but they were already in position before I did that. And in every game the Starks seem to be in perpetual civil war with their bannermen, every game, all the time.

The single biggest culprit here is the lack of a robust family tree for all the great houses (and I'd say many of the smaller ones too). Whether it's out of fear of adding non-cannon characters or the sheer workload of adding more members to the smaller branches of these families I don't know, but the fact that in some scenario's your house will contain less than half a dozen members spread across children, wives and elderly unmarried and childless siblings doesn't help the longevity of the houses. A single disease hitting a province early game can easily destroy a great house, as can fighting any war or just getting unlucky to plotting. The houses need to begin with larger family tree's so that cousins can take the seats if the main line suffers catastrophe.

The other big culprit is the incessant plotting. Plotting is too strong and is the cause of most of the civil wars that are braking apart realms and killing off houses. In my current play through as the Dragonlord of New Valyria I went full fash and started feeding everybody to my dragon. I had one enormous civil war against the entire western half of Essos (had all the free cities and Valyrian colonies under my control). After burning everything with fire and feeding numerous children and magistrates to my dragon I was at a fear level of Terryfing which carries a -90% chance of joining factions. It didn't matter. Even with only a tyranny level of -30/40 factions were still popping up constantly. The fear kind of held them in place but when you have 5 of your king-tier vassals joining independence factions, when you have a -90% chance on joining factions and the rulers have close family members who were fed to a dragon for pissing off the emperor it kind of shows you that the fear mechanic isn't working well to curtail the factions. And being nice doesn't always help either (not that the AI is capable of only choosing the friendly fluffy bunny options). I suspect this may be a vanilla issue with the inner mechanics of faction forming/joining being way to heavy-handed. But if Terrifying isn't enough to keep your vassals in line then what is? Perhaps a GoT mod workaround to all these factions is to run maintenance events based on character traits to brute force rulers out of factions? - With increasing levels of fear and/or prestige events can trigger to make rulers think twice about being members of factions, removing them and stopping them from joining further factions without the need for spymasters to catch them in the act first.

Another culprit that doesn't help is the lack of prestige rulers have at game start. After your game has been running a while your rulers and heirs have robust levels of prestige that help boost their relations, but on game start you almost always begin with nothing, very little or even negative prestige, and this isn't helped by the games lack of eligible daughters that often forces pawns to marry lowborn courtiers, either themselves or for their heirs. Thus may rulers are beginning from a handicap that doesn't help their position as a liege lord. Having rulers begin with greater prestige will help keep relations higher, and that might just be enough to keep some vassals from messing around with factions and plots.

But the mod already has tools in place to help, such as certain families having infinite claims on their traditional lands (e.g. Starks & Winterfel) and characters being able to trace theirlineage back to a great house and take their name. But it isn't enough. Simply adding more family members to the scenario starts would help considerably, as would looking how to curtail the factionalism.
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