What will Jade Dragon mean for this mod

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Re: What will Jade Dragon mean for this mod

PostPosted by Damocles » Sat Aug 26, 2017 22:38

crdwain wrote:
blackninja9939 wrote:Were there that many big naval battle in that time period?


There were a couple, the most famous of which was Sluys , but there was also the Counts , and Helgea amongst others. Beyond that, there were a fair few minor engagements involving 20 or so ships on either side, which I think would be well worth finding a mechanic to represent.


There are many, many naval battles involving the Byzantines, Genoese, Venetians, Sicillians,PIsans, etc, that took place in the Eastern Med, which had rather more than 20 ships involved, as well. But those are some of the most famous, yes.
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Re: What will Jade Dragon mean for this mod

PostPosted by Specialist » Sun Aug 27, 2017 01:00

Damocles wrote:
There are many, many naval battles involving the Byzantines, Genoese, Venetians, Sicillians,PIsans, etc, that took place in the Eastern Med, which had rather more than 20 ships involved, as well. But those are some of the most famous, yes.


That and blockades. A LOT of blockades happened during the middle ages involving the Muslims and the Byzantines, enough so that it would be a good (and simple) mechanic to implement for sieges with nearby ships.

My custom submod has something like it in decision form based loosely on SinStar's "Shipbreaker Bay Breaks Ships" and "Naval Blockades" mods, but it's choppy. Someone could probably hardcode the functionality in less than an hour and balance it in two more.
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Re: What will Jade Dragon mean for this mod

PostPosted by Damocles » Sun Aug 27, 2017 01:08

Specialist wrote:
Damocles wrote:
There are many, many naval battles involving the Byzantines, Genoese, Venetians, Sicillians,PIsans, etc, that took place in the Eastern Med, which had rather more than 20 ships involved, as well. But those are some of the most famous, yes.


That and blockades. A LOT of blockades happened during the middle ages involving the Muslims and the Byzantines, enough so that it would be a good (and simple) mechanic to implement for sieges with nearby ships.

My custom submod has something like it in decision form based loosely on SinStar's "Shipbreaker Bay Breaks Ships" and "Naval Blockades" mods, but it's choppy. Someone could probably hardcode the functionality in less than an hour and balance it in two more.


Absolutely. Naval blockades were probably more important than even the most famous battle. And yes, I've looked at those mods too. It's frustrating, cause it feels like the capability to mod it in is almost there, but it's just switched off somewhere we can't reach. (All of Paradox's other games have naval/blockade mechanics, and they all share much of the same engine).
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Re: What will Jade Dragon mean for this mod

PostPosted by GnomeSly » Sun Aug 27, 2017 01:42

The off map stuff might work well for working up towards the long night and the white walkers doing stuff? Not in the same way vanilla will do stuff with constant interaction obviously but perhaps to some extent. Although this sort of stuff can probably be handled perfectly fine with normal events really.
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Re: What will Jade Dragon mean for this mod

PostPosted by GrandTimeRuler » Sun Aug 27, 2017 03:56

I posted on this on the subforum on Paradox's forum, and I figured I'd post it here because I really like the idea I proposed (which was using the mechanic that simulates China in Jade Dragon for the Valyrian Freehold during a period set before the Doom):

I think that the new features could possibly be used as a way for the Free Cities (including Essaria and excluding Braavos), the cities of Slaver's Bay, Driftmark/Claw Isle/Dragonstone and (possibly) Gogossos to somehow interact with Valyria during the days of the Freehold (which would be an interesting date, IMO), with those cities serving as tributaries of some sort. I would imagine that the "closed" policy would be disabled for the Freehold (there isn't any indication that the Freehold was ever isolationist and protectionist; quite the opposite) and that the only policies available would be the open policy or the extremely rare expansionist policy.

Outside of the aforementioned cities/islands themselves, I would imagine that most realms would largely interact with Valyria through its vassals rather than with the Freehold itself; namely purchasing Valyrian steel swords through the Velaryons/Celtigars/Targaryens (in the case of prospective Westerosi buyers) and the Free Cities or the cities Slaver's Bay (in the case of prospective Essosi buyers), with the major exception of having the ability to directly interact with Valyria in the slave trade; all slave traders would have the ability to sell slaves to or (less frequently) buy them from prospective Valyrian traders.

I would imagine that military action by the Valyrian Freehold would be extremely rare and would only occur if it is requested as such by a tributary under attack; that being said, I think that such a force would represent the forces of one or two of the forty Dragonlord families (if that) rather than the full force of the Freehold, maybe even without a dragon; kind of analogous to the original force that the Rhoynish defeated in the Second Spice War. I'd imagine that the full force of the Freehold (i.e., analogous to the force of 300 dragons that burned the Rhoynish army in the Second Spice War) would only appear in very extreme circumstances that would threaten the very existence of a Free City itself. Something would also have to be done to represent the fact that the Freehold and its dragons kept the Dothraki at bay and prevented them from ravaging both areas under the rule of Valyria (e.g., Essaria and Hazdahn Mo) and areas under not under Valyrian rule (e.g., Sarnor and the areas of the Essosi mainland controlled for a time by Ib); perhaps the Dothraki are prevented from invading non-nomadic realms when the Valyrian Freehold mechanic is enabled, the same way that the Dothraki can't invade non-nomadic realms when they aren't united under a Khal of Khals.

During this time period I don't think that House Targaryen should be playable; as one of the Dragonlord families, albeit one of the lesser ones, it would naturally be involved in the intrigue and politics of the Freehold in some way. Perhaps Mantarys, Tolos, Elyria and the cities outside of the Valyrian Peninsula not granted self-governance (Selhorys, Volon Therys, etc.) should be unplayable as well and given a government type to reflect that they are governed by Archons sent from Valyria rather than by local elites. Also, the entire Emperor mechanic to be used in Jade Dragon should, I think, somehow be substituted to reflect that Valyria was ruled by a conclave of Dragonlords rather than by a monarch. The marriage mechanic should absolutely exist given the possibility of marrying a scion of one of the forty families (like Chai Duq did), but tributaries should marry a daughter of a Dragonlord rather than a daughter of an Emperor. It's possible that some of the Dragonlords had concubines (in light of the fact that the Lyseni are somewhat similar culturally to the Valyrians themselves and Tregar Ormollen is specifically said to have had concubines), so I suppose that it's plausible that players could offer to give up their daughters (or, more likely, a nubile slave) to join the harem of some Dragonlord; but it's just as plausible and possible that such a mechanic wouldn't exist. I'd imagine that the Dragonlords had eunuchs given that castration is widely-practiced in Essos, so I absolutely do think that offering up sons/other males in order to curry favor with the Dragonlords is plausible and should be in the mod.

In regards to timing for this potential start, I think that it should be sometime after the Second Spice War or otherwise late in the Freehold's history to ensure that all of the Free Cities are fully developed, self-governing tributaries.
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Re: What will Jade Dragon mean for this mod

PostPosted by LancelotLoire » Sun Aug 27, 2017 04:16

Just going off the wiki entry for the major naval involved conflicts between 806 and 1380.
Spoiler: show
9th century[edit]
806? - Moors defeat Franks under Hadumar near Corsica
807 - Franks under Burchard (a lieutenant of Charlemagne) defeat Moors at Sardinia[citation needed]
813 - Byzantines defeat Arabs
- Franks under Irmingar defeat Moors near Majorca
820 - Arabs defeat Franks? near Sardinia
822 - Constantinople: Byzantine central imperial fleet defeats rebel provincial fleets during the revolt of Thomas the Slav
829 - Battle of Thasos: Cretan Saracens defeat Byzantines
841 - Arabs defeat Venetian squadron near Taranto
849 Ostia - Italian city-states vs Muslims off southern Italy
c. 872/3 Battle of Kardia - Byzantine admiral Niketas Ooryphas defeats a fleet of Cretan Saracens under the renegade Photios.
c. 873/9 Battle of the Gulf of Corinth - Byzantine admiral Niketas Ooryphas defeats a fleet of Cretan Saracens and kills their commander, the renegade Photios.
880 Battle of Cephalonia - Byzantines under Nasar destroy Aghlabid fleet
Battle of Stelai (also Punto Stilo or Milazzo) - Byzantines under Nasar destroy Aghlabid fleet
885 - Frisians defeat Vikings
888 Battle of Milazzo - Aghlabids defeat Byzantines
10th century[edit]
906 - Byzantines under Himerios defeat Arabs on St. Thomas' Day
912 Chios - Syrian-Cilician fleet defeats Byzantine squadron under Himerios
932 Lang-shan Jiang
941 Rus'-Byzantine War - Byzantine fleet under Theophanes destroys Kievan Rus' fleet under Igor near Bosporus Strait
938 First Battle of Bach Dang River - Vietnamese defeat Southern Han fleet
956 - Tunisian fleet destroyed by Christians near Mazara
958 - Tunis vs Christians in Messina Strait
965 - Battle of the Straits - Fatimid fleet destroys Byzantine fleet under Niketas Abalantes at the Straits of Messina
975 - Song forces defeat Tang forces
981 Second Battle of Bach Dang - Vietnam defeats Chinese Song forces
998, February ? - Venetians under Orseolo defeat Narentan pirates
11th century[edit]
1000, September 9 Swold - Swedes and Danes defeat Norwegians
1004 - Venetians under Pietro Orseolo II defeat Arabs at Messina
1005 - Pisans defeat Arabs at Messina
1024 - Lemnos - Byzantines defeat Rus' fleet in the Lemnos Island
1026 The Helgeå - Danes under Ulf Jarl defeat Swedes and Norwegians under Anund Jacob and Olaf II Haraldsson (Olaf the Stout) in southern Sweden
1032 - An joint Byzantine-Ragusan squadron defeats a Muslim corsair fleet in the Adriatic
1032 - According to one hypothesis, battle at Iron Gate mentioned in Russian chronicles was a naval battle, where Novgorod fleet tries to reach Tallinn Bay, but is defeated by Estonians.[1]
1035–1036 - Last Arab corsair raids against the Aegean islands are repulsed by the Byzantines
1043 Rus'-Byzantine War - Byzantines defeat Rus' squadron in the Bosporus
1062 Niså - Norwegians under Harald Hardrada defeat Danes in Kattegat
1081 Dyrrhachium - Venetian-Byzantine fleet defeats Normans near Durazzo, Albania
1084 - Normans under Robert Guiscard (20 vessels?) defeat Venetians or Byzantines in a series of battles off Albania/Corfu
12th century[edit]
1123 Ascalon?
1137 - Venetians defeat Normans at Trani, Italy
1149 Cape Malea - Venetians and Byzantine Greeks defeat Normans
1153 Siege of Ascalon - Venetians defeat Fatimid Arabs near Tel Aviv
1156 January - Celtic ships defeat Viking squadron north of Scotland
1161 Tangdao - Song forces defeat Jin forces during the Jin–Song wars
Caishi - Song forces defeat Jin forces
1177 - Venetians and the Vatican defeat Genoese and Pisans
1183 November 17 Mizushima - Battle off coast of Shikoku
1184 June 15 Fimreite - King Sverre Sigurdsson of Norway defeats and kills rival King Magnus Erlingsson in the Sognefjord
1185 March 22 Yashima - Battle off coast of Shikoku
April 25 Dan-no-ura - Decisive victory for Minamoto clan off present-day Shimonoseki, Yamaguchi, Japan, ends Genpei War
7 November - Byzantines under Alexios Branas defeat Normans at Demetrias (Volos), Greece
13th century[edit]
1213 May 30 and 31 Damme - English under William Longsword sink most of fleet of France's King Philip II in the harbor of Damme
1217 August 24 Dover (South Foreland) - The "Fight off Sandwich". Fleet of English Hubert and Burgh defeat French fleet of Eustace the Monk off Dover. There were actually 2 battles - this describes the 2nd
1241 May 3 (First) Meloria - Pisans under Ansaldo de Mari defeat Genoese
1263 - Settepozzi - A Venetian fleet of 38 ships under Gilberto Dandolo defeates a joint Byzantine-Genoese fleet of 48 ships off the Peloponnese
1264 - Genoese defeat Venetians
1266 Trapani - Venetians defeat Genoese
c. 1273/1275 - Demetrias - Byzantine fleet defeats coalition of Lombard and Venetian lords of Euboea and Crete
1278 July 25 - Algeciras - Castilians vs Morocco and Granada
before 1279 - Conrad Lancia defeats Muslim fleet near Tunisia (details)
1279 March 19 Yamen - Yuan Dynasty defeats Song Dynasty
1282 October 11 - Peter de Queralt defeats Angevin fleet near Reggio di Calabria (details)
October 14 - Peter de Queralt defeats Angevin fleet near Nicotera (details)
1283 July 8 Malta - Aragonese-Sicilians under Roger of Lauria defeat Angevins in Grand Harbour, Malta
1284 June 5 Gulf of Naples - Aragonese-Sicilians under Roger of Lauria defeat Neapolitans and capture Charles of Salerno (later Charles II of Naples)
August 6 (Second) Meloria - Genoese utterly destroy the Pisan fleet near Tuscany, Italy
1285 August? (possibly mid-September) - 11 Catalan galleys defeat 25 French galleys under Guillaume de Lodève at Rosas
September 4 (probably) Les Formigues (Las Hormigas) - Aragonese-Sicilians under Roger of Lauria defeat French under di Mari and de Orreo near Barcelona
1287 June 23 The Counts - Aragonese-Sicilians under Roger of Lauria defeat Angevins near Naples
1288 Third Battle of Bach Dang - Vietnamese defeat Mongols
1294 Laiazzo - Genoese defeat Venetians near Laiazzo
1298 September 9 Curzola - Genoese fleet under Lamba Doria defeats Venetians under Andrea Dandolo
1299 July 4 Cape Orlando - Angevins under Roger of Lauria defeat Sicilians under d'Oria off northern Sicily
1300 June 14 Ponza - Angevins under Roger of Lauria defeat Sicilians under d'Oria near Naples
14th century[edit]
1304 August 18 (2 days) Zierikzee - French fleet under Genoese admiral Renier Grimaldi destroys Flemish fleet
1319 July 23 Chios - Knights Hospitaller and Genoese of the Lordship of Chios score a crushing victory over an Aydinid fleet
1338 September 23 Arnemuiden - Philip VI of France beats English fleet of Edward III of England off the coast of Zeeland. It was the first naval battle using artillery.[2]
1340 June 24 Sluys - Edward III of England beats Franco-Genoese fleet of Philip VI of France off the coast of Flanders and gains control of the English Channel
1342 Guernsey
1350 August 29 (Old Style) L'Espagnols-sur-Mer - 50 English ships under Edward III and the Black Prince defeat 40 Castilian ships
1352 Bosporus - Genoese under Paganino Doria vs Venetians, Byzantine Greeks and Aragonese in Bosporus Strait
1353 August 29 La Loiera - Venetians and Aragonese defeat Genoese near Sardinia
1354 Sapienza Genoese under Paganino Doria defeat Venetians under Niccolò Pisani in the southern Peloponnese
1363 August 30-October 4 Lake Poyang - Mings under Zhu Yuanzhang defeat Hans under Chen Youliang
1372 June 22 and 23 La Rochelle - Castilian fleet defeats English fleet near La Rochelle
1378 - Venetians under Vettor Pisani defeat Genoese near Cape d'Anzio
1379 May 7 Pola - Genoese under Luciano Doria defeat Venetians under Vittore Pisani near Pula
1380 June Chioggia - Venetians under Andrea Contarini defeat Genoese


Greek fire was around during this time.
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Re: What will Jade Dragon mean for this mod

PostPosted by Specialist » Sun Aug 27, 2017 05:29

LancelotLoire wrote:Greek fire IRL wildfire was around during this time.


FTFY.

On a serious note, the ability to make naval battles and blockades would be glorious, and greek fire/asoiaf wildfire would make it even better.
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Re: What will Jade Dragon mean for this mod

PostPosted by blackninja9939 » Sun Aug 27, 2017 13:27

Lets try and keep this on the topic of Jade Dragon features and not about naval battles which are not in Jade Dragon
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Re: What will Jade Dragon mean for this mod

PostPosted by Enriador » Sun Aug 27, 2017 16:09

@blackninja9939, you suggested that each Free City could have its own Dragon Throne-like tab, and it's a great idea indeed - though it does sound unfair that Westeros Only will have special interactions and bonuses from these off-map interactions, and vanilla AGOT won't. Is there space in the interface for all nine tabs?

EXTRA SUGGESTION: What about the Dosh Khaleen as the off-map entity?

They can represent the might of the Dothraki in every possible bookmark, even in Century of Blood. There is a strong basis in lore for sending tribute to the Dothraki that goes all the way to Vaes Dothraki itself; the notion of them rewarding you with enslaved scholars who hail from all areas of expertise or invade a realm of your choosing to break it apart also makes sense, canonically speaking.

They can even send you a strong, attractive slave from somewhere else so you can take as your concubine, or sell you slave camps for a discounted price, perhaps even offer you an army of screamers (event troops) to help you defeat your enemies!

What do you think of it?
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Re: What will Jade Dragon mean for this mod

PostPosted by blackninja9939 » Sun Aug 27, 2017 17:00

Enriador wrote:@blackninja9939, you suggested that each Free City could have its own Dragon Throne-like tab, and it's a great idea indeed - though it does sound unfair that Westeros Only will have special interactions and bonuses from these off-map interactions, and vanilla AGOT won't. Is there space in the interface for all nine tabs?

The buttons can be any size designed so just making a small set of buttons somewhere near the mini map in some nicely designed fashion would work fine. They would all likely have the same interactions with a few extra ones for the places that allow slavery.

Enriador wrote:EXTRA SUGGESTION: What about the Dosh Khaleen as the off-map entity?

They can represent the might of the Dothraki in every possible bookmark, even in Century of Blood. There is a strong basis in lore for sending tribute to the Dothraki that goes all the way to Vaes Dothraki itself; the notion of them rewarding you with enslaved scholars who hail from all areas of expertise or invade a realm of your choosing to break it apart also makes sense, canonically speaking.

They can even send you a strong, attractive slave from somewhere else so you can take as your concubine, or sell you slave camps for a discounted price, perhaps even offer you an army of screamers (event troops) to help you defeat your enemies!

What do you think of it?

Hmmm interesting although does not really mesh to well with us having the Dothraki hordes on the map already
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Re: What will Jade Dragon mean for this mod

PostPosted by Andre Massena » Sun Aug 27, 2017 22:02

crdwain wrote:
blackninja9939 wrote:Were there that many big naval battle in that time period?


There were a couple, the most famous of which was Sluys , but there was also the Counts , and Helgea amongst others. Beyond that, there were a fair few minor engagements involving 20 or so ships on either side, which I think would be well worth finding a mechanic to represent.


And many battles featuring the Byzantines

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categor ... ine_Empire
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Re: What will Jade Dragon mean for this mod

PostPosted by DominusNovus » Mon Aug 28, 2017 18:12

What about using the Chinese Emperor system for the White Walkers/Others? They're off-map and uninvolved for most of the story, but their influence is felt, and, eventually, they start marching on the realms of men.
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Re: What will Jade Dragon mean for this mod

PostPosted by blackninja9939 » Mon Aug 28, 2017 19:39

DominusNovus wrote:What about using the Chinese Emperor system for the White Walkers/Others? They're off-map and uninvolved for most of the story, but their influence is felt, and, eventually, they start marching on the realms of men.

And what interactions would you have with them to gain their good graces and spend that on? They are an undead horde they hardly care about giving you stuff :D
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Re: What will Jade Dragon mean for this mod

PostPosted by StoneWallace17 » Mon Aug 28, 2017 19:49

blackninja9939 wrote:
DominusNovus wrote:What about using the Chinese Emperor system for the White Walkers/Others? They're off-map and uninvolved for most of the story, but their influence is felt, and, eventually, they start marching on the realms of men.

And what interactions would you have with them to gain their good graces and spend that on? They are an undead horde they hardly care about giving you stuff :D

Sacrifice your children so they spare you? :lol:
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Re: What will Jade Dragon mean for this mod

PostPosted by Mirith » Mon Aug 28, 2017 21:28

So far Jade Dragon looks like a major disappointment.
Thankfully we didn't get entirety of China (RiP Frame rates).
But so far, most of the presented features aren't anything special.
Rally points aren't needed... It's just for making life easier.
CB and tributaries won't matter much. There are already plenty oother ways to get new lands

Court teacher is meh. We've got maesters.

Off world empire won't matter that much, since only very few "societies" are eligible for that job. Iron bank or faceless men make most sense. Ooooooor R'hollor?

Modding optimisation and bug fixes are so far the biggest highlight... sadly.


On the other hand... if this expansion won't bring anything significant, like M & M did, this would mean possible expansion of mod with more features, bug fixes and probably most stable version in years.
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Re: What will Jade Dragon mean for this mod

PostPosted by blackninja9939 » Mon Aug 28, 2017 21:49

Mirith wrote:So far Jade Dragon looks like a major disappointment.
Thankfully we didn't get entirety of China (RiP Frame rates).
But so far, most of the presented features aren't anything special.
Rally points aren't needed... It's just for making life easier.
CB and tributaries won't matter much. There are already plenty oother ways to get new lands

Court teacher is meh. We've got maesters.

Off world empire won't matter that much, since only very few "societies" are eligible for that job. Iron bank or faceless men make most sense. Ooooooor R'hollor?

Modding optimisation and bug fixes are so far the biggest highlight... sadly.


On the other hand... if this expansion won't bring anything significant, like M & M did, this would mean possible expansion of mod with more features, bug fixes and probably most stable version in years.

Only if you are counting what it can add to just this mod, as a DLC itself it is not too different from M&M in that it is based on actual Europe and the world and offers a frame work for mods to use.

Court Teacher is different to the function of Maesters. However we are going to make it so the Maesters are automatically the court teacher.

You say modding optimisation and functionality is sadly the biggest highlight I say it is a great highlight ;)

Well it does add the entire offmap system which is significant, just not for us as we have the entire map. However it would be very useful for Westeros Only.
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Re: What will Jade Dragon mean for this mod

PostPosted by Mirith » Mon Aug 28, 2017 22:17

Of course modding optimasition is a great highlight.
But what I was trying to say is... that there's nothing too much significant in terms of new features.
Compared to M&M... It looks very different. M&M brought us treasury, ally commands and societies. All of this is a huge deal.

But! Developer diaries aren't finished yet. Plus... to be completely honest. I'm very glad for Jade Dragon. If it's brining mod optimasition and bug fixes, it's good enough.
If New features aren't anything special to include, more events and features unique to AgoT mod can be added.
And game stabilised enough to have minimal amour of bugs. Which is probably even better than crapton of little features.

And yeah. Westeros only could use offworld maps.
Although some factions and groups could use it too.
"Off world empire" doesn't have to be always empire. It can be simply group or faction with their own ambitions, boons and disadvantages.
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Re: What will Jade Dragon mean for this mod

PostPosted by kopite » Tue Aug 29, 2017 00:51

blackninja9939 wrote:
DominusNovus wrote:What about using the Chinese Emperor system for the White Walkers/Others? They're off-map and uninvolved for most of the story, but their influence is felt, and, eventually, they start marching on the realms of men.

And what interactions would you have with them to gain their good graces and spend that on? They are an undead horde they hardly care about giving you stuff :D


while my vote goes to the iron bank

you could do this in a more fluid way than is actually intended for vanilla as in instead of the war of dawn happening randomly
there are situations that lower and raise there graces
say no stark in winterfell for example
and when there reputation is low enough that is the point the white walkers invade
it would allow you to keep track of when it was gona happen from a player POV which may seem a little gamey
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Re: What will Jade Dragon mean for this mod

PostPosted by Damocles » Tue Aug 29, 2017 03:16

Am I insane for thinking the system would be best for representing the Blackfyre Pretenders/Golden Company type situations? Where they're sort've a court in exile. Even Dany at certain points in the books. Every so often the Blackfyres would launch an invasion, but aside from the last time when Maelys conquered the Stepstones, they held no land.
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Re: What will Jade Dragon mean for this mod

PostPosted by Mirith » Tue Aug 29, 2017 03:35

Damocles wrote:Am I insane for thinking the system would be best for representing the Blackfyre Pretenders/Golden Company type situations? Where they're sort've a court in exile. Even Dany at certain points in the books. Every so often the Blackfyres would launch an invasion, but aside from the last time when Maelys conquered the Stepstones, they held no land.


But what if Blackfyres are extinct house? O___o
And isn't Golden Company hirable and already very well done in the game?

Plus... Blackfyre invasions are pretty well incorporated into the mod, thanks to adventurers... Which can be
Very dangerous.
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