What will Jade Dragon mean for this mod

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What will Jade Dragon mean for this mod

PostPosted by Dawnbreaker » Fri Aug 25, 2017 04:15

As the title says, do you have any new ideas for features based off of the new content added in the dlc?
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Re: What will Jade Dragon mean for this mod

PostPosted by blackninja9939 » Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:43

As answered in another thread, the systems from Jade Dragon are used to represent off map entities none of which we really have in AGOT that fit the design of being a big unified power house as well.
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Re: What will Jade Dragon mean for this mod

PostPosted by Dawnbreaker » Fri Aug 25, 2017 12:11

Fair enough. And sorry for making a new thread then.
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Re: What will Jade Dragon mean for this mod

PostPosted by blackninja9939 » Fri Aug 25, 2017 13:54

No worries! I think that thread is buried a bit now!

And seeing ideas from other people is also good, we may have totally looked something over! :D
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Re: What will Jade Dragon mean for this mod

PostPosted by Damocles » Fri Aug 25, 2017 16:45

I don't see much of value, modding wise, in Jade Dragon. Except perhaps it might be possible to better represent an outlaw or pirate band with them. Like the Kingswood Brotherhood, or Knights of the Hollow Hill.

It boggles me that after all this time, they still haven't coded in naval battles.
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Re: What will Jade Dragon mean for this mod

PostPosted by blackninja9939 » Fri Aug 25, 2017 17:23

Damocles wrote:I don't see much of value, modding wise, in Jade Dragon. Except perhaps it might be possible to better represent an outlaw or pirate band with them. Like the Kingswood Brotherhood, or Knights of the Hollow Hill.

The off map system is extremely moddable just not necessarily for this mod due to us putting mostly everything on the map anyway. However I do imagine it would work very well in Westeros Only.

Damocles wrote:It boggles me that after all this time, they still haven't coded in naval battles.

Were there that many big naval battle in that time period?
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Re: What will Jade Dragon mean for this mod

PostPosted by Damocles » Fri Aug 25, 2017 18:07

blackninja9939 wrote:
Damocles wrote:I don't see much of value, modding wise, in Jade Dragon. Except perhaps it might be possible to better represent an outlaw or pirate band with them. Like the Kingswood Brotherhood, or Knights of the Hollow Hill.

The off map system is extremely moddable just not necessarily for this mod due to us putting mostly everything on the map anyway. However I do imagine it would work very well in Westeros Only.

Damocles wrote:It boggles me that after all this time, they still haven't coded in naval battles.

Were there that many big naval battle in that time period?


This is the same thing that Doom asked me like 5 years ago. But the answer is that yes. There were tons of extremely important naval battles. This is the same era where we got the word for 'Admiral'. It marked the rise and fall of some of the greatest thalassocracies the world has ever known. The Kingdom of Sicily, Republics of Genoa, Venice, Pisa. Aragon. The vikings. Byzantine fleet. Control of the straits was a /huge/ deal, especially where Sicily, Dardanelles, and Tangiers was concerned. Many, many important naval battles were fought. Hundreds. There were more important naval battles than there were land battles.

Naval warfare is also important thematically for our own modded setting. There are many naval battles referenced in Game of Thrones, and the role of sea power. Like how a Volantene army took Myr, and a Volantene fleet took Lys. And most of GRRM's examples are inspired by historical events that he repurposed.

Basically, the whole naval component of CK2 is still trapped like 20 years ago in Crown of the North or CK1. It's really sad. Leaving naval battles out of the medieval era makes as little sense as leaving them out of say, the Ancient Greek era. You can't really model one without the other. Especially the inability to control the straits is a huge problem. RIght now armies can just march onto most islands, whether they have a fleet or not. However, armies should only be able to march across straits if they have naval superiority in the region.
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Re: What will Jade Dragon mean for this mod

PostPosted by EDAP » Fri Aug 25, 2017 19:31

Given that some of the DLC for CKII does feel a little like they're scraping the bottom of the barrel, I have always been curious as to why there still isn't a naval component. Just to add to your list of naval battles, control of ports was crucial in the 100 years war and their were often naval battles outside them too.
Here is a link to my personal list of FAQs. Please check there to see if it answers you question. The specific details aren't up to date, and I probably won't update it for a while, but the general ideas are unchanged.
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Re: What will Jade Dragon mean for this mod

PostPosted by Damocles » Fri Aug 25, 2017 19:38

EDAP wrote:Given that some of the DLC for CKII does feel a little like they're scraping the bottom of the barrel, I have always been curious as to why there still isn't a naval component. Just to add to your list of naval battles, control of ports was crucial in the 100 years war and their were often naval battles outside them too.


The answer to that is basically at some point around Horse Lords, they were left on a shoestring budget, and the top tier devs moved onto other games (like Stellaris or HOI IV). At the very latest starting with Reaper, they stopped adding ambitious new elements to the gameplay. Building a hospital, or having a cache of artifacts, or an offmap power, do represent some hard coded investment. But it's not say...like what they did with Horse Lords or Old Gods, which added whole new gameplay modes.
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Re: What will Jade Dragon mean for this mod

PostPosted by blackninja9939 » Fri Aug 25, 2017 20:33

Damocles wrote:
EDAP wrote:Given that some of the DLC for CKII does feel a little like they're scraping the bottom of the barrel, I have always been curious as to why there still isn't a naval component. Just to add to your list of naval battles, control of ports was crucial in the 100 years war and their were often naval battles outside them too.


The answer to that is basically at some point around Horse Lords, they were left on a shoestring budget, and the top tier devs moved onto other games (like Stellaris or HOI IV). At the very latest starting with Reaper, they stopped adding ambitious new elements to the gameplay. Building a hospital, or having a cache of artifacts, or an offmap power, do represent some hard coded investment. But it's not say...like what they did with Horse Lords or Old Gods, which added whole new gameplay modes.

That not true at all...

Hard coded stuff =/= the best content, some of the most well received and liked content is not stuff done by code alone. In fact very few things in the game are simply just code, most are code to give a way of doing something via content design scripting.
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Re: What will Jade Dragon mean for this mod

PostPosted by MAR1L5N » Fri Aug 25, 2017 22:09

will you include the new cineses portraits to the YiTi Empire ?
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Re: What will Jade Dragon mean for this mod

PostPosted by Damocles » Sat Aug 26, 2017 00:58

blackninja9939 wrote:
Damocles wrote:
EDAP wrote:Given that some of the DLC for CKII does feel a little like they're scraping the bottom of the barrel, I have always been curious as to why there still isn't a naval component. Just to add to your list of naval battles, control of ports was crucial in the 100 years war and their were often naval battles outside them too.


The answer to that is basically at some point around Horse Lords, they were left on a shoestring budget, and the top tier devs moved onto other games (like Stellaris or HOI IV). At the very latest starting with Reaper, they stopped adding ambitious new elements to the gameplay. Building a hospital, or having a cache of artifacts, or an offmap power, do represent some hard coded investment. But it's not say...like what they did with Horse Lords or Old Gods, which added whole new gameplay modes.

That not true at all...

Hard coded stuff =/= the best content, some of the most well received and liked content is not stuff done by code alone. In fact very few things in the game are simply just code, most are code to give a way of doing something via content design scripting.


Indeed. It's just they moved away from adding in a whole new gameplay elements that required significant hard coding, and started focusing more on scripting. The devs for this mod, like you and knuckey etc, have scripted more intricate and better events than a lot of what Paradox has charged for. What I used to really look forward to, DLC-wise where CK2 was concerned, was expanded mechanics we could repurpose. Artifacts gives that a little. But that's all I can really think of. Nothing on the scale of say, being able to apply nomad mechanics to Dothraki.

And it's nice to have well scripted events and graphical editions, and a couple things they've done are really neat. But I'd rather have them focus on adding depth to the game, rather than say just expanding the map (like with Rajas). I really liked Conclave. Since Conclave felt like it was building on the game's core gameplay. Conclave required a lot of hard coding though.

Though honestly, they could just the most slapdash, basic naval combat system, like setting a flag to let galleys fight on the oceans, and I'd be happy, cause at least it could be modded/refined from there. Galleys do function as units and have their own stats. There should be a way to make them fight without completely crashing the map (as tends to happen when playing around with ocean properties).
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Re: What will Jade Dragon mean for this mod

PostPosted by StoneWallace17 » Sat Aug 26, 2017 01:35

MAR1L5N wrote:will you include the new cineses portraits to the YiTi Empire ?

DLC Portraits or CPRPlus might, doubt the main mod will.
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Re: What will Jade Dragon mean for this mod

PostPosted by Enriador » Sat Aug 26, 2017 01:43

I gave a suggestion for an off-map entity in the other thread that is 1) unified 2) extremely powerful 3) untouchable (kind of) but got no feedback from fellow forumites. I proposed the Iron Bank.

You could do a few favors for them - selling artifacts, sending Lord Swyft-like envoys, pawning generic "precious items" (like gemstones? Armor? A ship?) to get some "Grace". The Grace can then buy an expert administrator, or an army of mercenaries paid by the Iron Bank, maybe even a claim on a nearby kingdom who is in debt! Tributaries/Peace Deals can be turned off however.

On Westeros Only: what possible unified entity could we have there? Perhaps the Sealord of Braavos? Or the Golden Emperor of Yi Ti?

On the new CBs introduced by the expansion: will any of them be used in the mod?
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Re: What will Jade Dragon mean for this mod

PostPosted by StoneWallace17 » Sat Aug 26, 2017 01:55

I like the Iron Bank suggestion, making it so it would have more of a presence than just taking and repaying a loan from them. But that's up to blackninja and crew (or other modders for a submod)
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Re: What will Jade Dragon mean for this mod

PostPosted by Soulbourne » Sat Aug 26, 2017 04:42

Kept reading and reading and wondering why no one mentioned the iron bank. Since having it be a "Constant but off site entity" that you can play politics with and have major influence on international politics due to all the fingers their money pouches have would allow quite a bit of possibilities potentially, moreso than a society would arguably. If the iron bank would have instead of border policies possess investment policies that reflect how open they are to loans and funding things like say adventurers seeking conquest. Or events like say dothraki raiders pillaging some of their investments causing them to request support in the form of levied troops or gold to fund mercenaries to hunt these bands. Or possibly things like factionalism in the board of directorates as it were causing some internal strife and numerous investors being driven to ground or extensive corruption being uncovered leading to mercenary bands by former members appearing. Etc etc.
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Re: What will Jade Dragon mean for this mod

PostPosted by Lord_Verkos » Sat Aug 26, 2017 07:09

I do like the idea of the Iron Bank as an off-map entity, though I believe I saw in another thread Knuckey said they were doing that through societies potentially. The new tributaries might be useful for later Yi Ti in that the princely states couldl be tributaries instead of vassals to better reflect the loss of control in Yi Ti. Also, I expect there may be some minor fluff that could be added to Yi Ti and the east from the upcoming dlc, little events like hunts or little artifacts.
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Re: What will Jade Dragon mean for this mod

PostPosted by blackninja9939 » Sat Aug 26, 2017 14:23

Damocles wrote:Indeed. It's just they moved away from adding in a whole new gameplay elements that required significant hard coding, and started focusing more on scripting. The devs for this mod, like you and knuckey etc, have scripted more intricate and better events than a lot of what Paradox has charged for. What I used to really look forward to, DLC-wise where CK2 was concerned, was expanded mechanics we could repurpose. Artifacts gives that a little. But that's all I can really think of. Nothing on the scale of say, being able to apply nomad mechanics to Dothraki.

Again that is really not true, every single new mechanic requires significant hard coding to make the base line and then lots of those things are exposed to the script for the benefit of making better content and enabling modders to do things as well.
Source: The off map system from Jade Dragon and the society system in Monks and Mystics and the core systems from nearly every DLC.

Damocles wrote:And it's nice to have well scripted events and graphical editions, and a couple things they've done are really neat. But I'd rather have them focus on adding depth to the game, rather than say just expanding the map (like with Rajas). I really liked Conclave. Since Conclave felt like it was building on the game's core gameplay. Conclave required a lot of hard coding though.

It did not really require any more hard coding than other DLCs. The code parts are the ability to give children focuses (all of the actual focuses and events are script), the ability to have favours (that one is mostly code however it can all be referenced in script), law rework (of which all is script except the way they are displayed on the interface but that is very minor) and council's voting according to personalities (of which all the personalities and voting styles are script).
New governments always require more code stuff like Horse Lords but a special government with no flavour events in it is incredibly boring.

Enriador wrote:On Westeros Only: what possible unified entity could we have there? Perhaps the Sealord of Braavos? Or the Golden Emperor of Yi Ti?

Each of the Free Cities?
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Re: What will Jade Dragon mean for this mod

PostPosted by joost_10 » Sat Aug 26, 2017 14:28

Rhllor? a off map entity with which you are be able to communicate.
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Re: What will Jade Dragon mean for this mod

PostPosted by crdwain » Sat Aug 26, 2017 16:38

blackninja9939 wrote:Were there that many big naval battle in that time period?


There were a couple, the most famous of which was Sluys , but there was also the Counts , and Helgea amongst others. Beyond that, there were a fair few minor engagements involving 20 or so ships on either side, which I think would be well worth finding a mechanic to represent.
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