Century of Blood - Celtigars High Valyrian Flag

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Century of Blood - Celtigars High Valyrian Flag

PostPosted by ManicMayo » Sat Aug 26, 2017 18:17

All members of House Celtigar in the Century of Blood bookmark lack the high_valyrian flag, causing most of them to randomly flip to Westerosi Valyrian culture within the first few weeks/months.
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Re: Century of Blood - Celtigars High Valyrian Flag

PostPosted by Damocles » Sat Aug 26, 2017 22:30

Honestly, my problem with the Century of Blood flag is quite the opposite, with random High Valyrians getting spawned and not culled.

Sunglass, Celtigar and Velaryon should be Western_valyrian from the start anwyays. Sunglass technically, should be stormlanders or crownlanders. All we know about Sunglass is that the House's name is Westerosi in origin (Sunglass) and that they have an ancient dedication to the Seven. In GRRM's world, 'ancient' refers to either around the time or before the Andal invasion.

Also, Celtigar and Velaryon were minor Valyrian families, who were out on the backwater of the Empire. It was also only the 40 High Valyrian 'Dragonlord' families that practiced incest. Not everyone who followed the Valyrian religion. The Celtigars/Velaryons are really no more High Valyrian than the Lysene.

The High Valyrian tag and the divine incest, should be restricted to only descendants of those 40 Dragonrider families. We only know of a few in the book. There was Emperor Aurion in Qohorik, who being a Dragon Rider, must have belonged to the higher families. There's mention of Dragon riders in Tyrosh and Lys at the time of the doom, but that shortly afterwards, the populace turned on them, killed them and brought down their dragons.

In the bookmark, those Dragon Riders start as like generals for Tyrosh and Lys, but there should be an event where they either flee and turn into adventurers, or get murdered at the start.

(Unrelatedly, Old Ghis was changed to not be a ruin in the Century of Blood start, but it was destroyed at least a thousand years prior).
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Re: Century of Blood - Celtigars High Valyrian Flag

PostPosted by Toccs » Sun Aug 27, 2017 01:39

I don't think that Old Ghis was changed to not be a ruin. The ruins of Old Ghis, unlike the other ruin provinces are not set through the unoccupied_events file but instead through character history. I suspect the date for relevant history entry is after the Century of Blood and thus in the submod it either doesn't exist or has not happened yet on startup. I will fix this for the next version.

I will also add the high_valyrian flag to the Celitgars to make them consistent with the other valyrian families in the submod. Whether or not they should be high valyrians or western valyrians from the start is a debate that can be had, but I'm not going to make a unilateral call on that right this moment.

Thanks for the reports.
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Re: Century of Blood - Celtigars High Valyrian Flag

PostPosted by Specialist » Sun Aug 27, 2017 02:08

Damocles wrote:ncient' refers to either around the time or before the Andal invasion.

Also, Celtigar and Velaryon were minor Valyrian families, who were out on the backwater of the Empire. It was also only the 40 High Valyrian 'Dragonlord' families that practiced incest. Not everyone who followed the Valyrian religion. The Celtigars/Velaryons are really no more High Valyrian than the Lysene.

The High Valyrian tag and the divine incest, should be restricted to only descendants of those 40 Dragonrider families. We only know of a few in the book. There was Emperor Aurion in Qohorik, who being a Dragon Rider, must have belonged to the higher families. There's mention of Dragon riders in Tyrosh and Lys at the time of the doom, but that shortly afterwards, the populace turned on them, killed them and brought down their dragons.


I agree, to a point. I'd like to see a flag-based mechanic that makes the Lyseni/Eastern Valyrian/Western Valyrian houses in the world, after enough consequential dragonlord (Targaryen/Blackfyre/custom houses)intermarriages, have the divine_blood flag and become HV. While I'm not a big fan of the submods, something like Blood of Valyria would make an interesting concept to build on (East/West Valy and Lyseni are half-bloods and Targaryens start as full-blooded. The more potent the blood, the closer they are to the Dragonlords. Further, if a house drops below 50%, they should lose the dragonlord status, divine blood marker, protections against deformities, and almost all ability to tame dragons). Something like this would go well with a decision that allowed a house to claim themselves dragonlords (like you get after creating a custom HV character) with a high enough blood level. It's probably too complex to really implement well, but would be cool.
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Re: Century of Blood - Celtigars High Valyrian Flag

PostPosted by Damocles » Sun Aug 27, 2017 03:27

Toccs wrote:I don't think that Old Ghis was changed to not be a ruin. The ruins of Old Ghis, unlike the other ruin provinces are not set through the unoccupied_events file but instead through character history. I suspect the date for relevant history entry is after the Century of Blood and thus in the submod it either doesn't exist or has not happened yet on startup. I will fix this for the next version.

I will also add the high_valyrian flag to the Celitgars to make them consistent with the other valyrian families in the submod. Whether or not they should be high valyrians or western valyrians from the start is a debate that can be had, but I'm not going to make a unilateral call on that right this moment.

Thanks for the reports.


The Old Ghis entry was removed from the 'unoccupied' file in the characters folder. And since both CoB and the base game have an 'unoccupied' file, the former was overwriting the latter.

As for Western/High Valyrians. It seems like a debate that needs to be had. Since the books/world book etc is quite explicit that the only real 'High Valyrians' are from the 40 dragon families. Everyone else is no more High Valyrian than the Lysene or Volantene Old Bloods, etc. There's no recorded instance of a Celtigar or Velaryon engaging in intra-family incest either, unless they were marrying a Targaryen.

The reason why the forty Dragonlord families interbred, was because their blood was linked to their ability to control the dragons. Non-dragon owning families had no such incentive.
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Re: Century of Blood - Celtigars High Valyrian Flag

PostPosted by Toccs » Sun Aug 27, 2017 03:50

Damocles wrote:As for Western/High Valyrians. It seems like a debate that needs to be had. Since the books/world book etc is quite explicit that the only real 'High Valyrians' are from the 40 dragon families. Everyone else is no more High Valyrian than the Lysene or Volantene Old Bloods, etc. There's no recorded instance of a Celtigar or Velaryon engaging in intra-family incest either, unless they were marrying a Targaryen.


So they would be eastern valyrians until they become western valyrians. I can get on board with that.

Damocles wrote:The reason why the forty Dragonlord families interbred, was because their blood was linked to their ability to control the dragons. Non-dragon owning families had no such incentive.


But then you have the Velaryons who may not originally have been but certainly became after the conquest just as much a dragon owing family as the Targaryens. Which, now I think about it is pretty much the gist of the debate the team had years ago when it was decided to to keep them as high valyrians while the other houses become western. There's also the curious case of their history and having been in Westeros before any other Valyrians. I would argue that they are a special case.
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Re: Century of Blood - Celtigars High Valyrian Flag

PostPosted by Damocles » Sun Aug 27, 2017 13:09

Toccs wrote:So they would be eastern valyrians until they become western valyrians. I can get on board with that.


Personally, I wouldn't even go through the effort of changing them from Eastern to Western Valyrians. Currently, Eastern Valyrian is only used for Volantene Old Bloods (who aren't really High Valyrian according to semi-canon sources, but the descendants of the first soldier-settlers). I would just assume that at game start, 'Western Valyrian' covers those Valyrians who moved to islands in the Narrow Sea prior to the Doom. All Celtigar and Velaryon had were their navies, which once paired with the Targaryen dragons, allowed them to dominate the Narrow Sea for a hundred years (and seemingly grow quite wealthy).

From the very start, the Celtigars and Velaryons had a subordinate role, supplying soldiers and ships. They were in no way equal. In the same as 'Eastern Valyrians' are simply descendants of soldier-settlers in Volantis, 'Western Valyrians' are simply descendants of minor backwater noble houses in the Narrow Sea.

The main incentive for separating them into Western and Eastern, is for name/dynasty/graphical reasons. But they're really no more special than the Lysene.

Toccs wrote:But then you have the Velaryons who may not originally have been but certainly became after the conquest just as much a dragon owing family as the Targaryens. Which, now I think about it is pretty much the gist of the debate the team had years ago when it was decided to to keep them as high valyrians while the other houses become western. There's also the curious case of their history and having been in Westeros before any other Valyrians. I would argue that they are a special case.


It's true that some Velaryons managed to tame dragons. But near as I can tell from the wiki, just about all of them were either the children or grandchildren of Targaryen parents (like Rhaenys and her brood of Velaryon children), or they had Targaryen blood, like Corlys. The Targaryens interbred with the Velaryons a lot in the century after the Doom, and the century after the conquest.

Not all Velaryons were successful when it came to taming dragons either. Addam Velaryon tamed one, but his twin brother Alyn failed and was almost killed. I don't think there's ever been any mention in the books or wiki, of a genuine Targaryen failing to tame a dragon. Making them High Valryians gives them the same success ratio as Targaryens. That seems amiss.

Gameplay wise, by the time of the 'dragonseeds', the higher Velaryon penchant for dragon riding, can be traced to having lots of Targaryen ancestors, better stats from interbreeding with them for so long, easier access to dragon lore, the innate bonus they get from being Western Valyrian and/or Valyrian religion, etc. That better covers someone like Addam Velaryon, than making them High Valyrians. Which really should be restricted to the forty Dragonlord families.

A better solution to more thoroughly represent the Velaryons, would be giving them a bonus to Dragon lore or dragon taming/hatching chance, based on having ancestors that were successful dragonriders or dragontamers. Which combined with the bonus they're already getting for Western Valyrian culture, would be more than sufficient.

In fact, I had to set the in-game rule for Dragon taming to be harder, cause so many non High Valyrians were successfully taming.

There's also no elegant explanation for why the Targaryens would retain their High Valyrian culture, but the Celtigar/Velaryon/Sunglass dynasties lose it. (Albeit for Sunglass, it's cause they were never Valyrian to begin with, given their Westerosi name, and their 'ancient faith in the seven').
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Re: Century of Blood - Celtigars High Valyrian Flag

PostPosted by ManicMayo » Sun Aug 27, 2017 16:37

Well, perhaps there should be a separate 'Noble Valyrian' culture added for the Velaryons and early Celtigars to simulate highborn Valyrian families that, whilst not dragon riders themselves, interbred regularly with dragon riding families. It could have the same gfx culture and character names as High Valyrian but with a lower dragon taming chance (but still higher than Westerosi/Essosi Valyrian). Bastard/Low Valyrian dynasties would become Noble Valyrian by marrying regularly with High Valyrians.
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Re: Century of Blood - Celtigars High Valyrian Flag

PostPosted by Damocles » Mon Aug 28, 2017 00:01

ManicMayo wrote:Well, perhaps there should be a separate 'Noble Valyrian' culture added for the Velaryons and early Celtigars to simulate highborn Valyrian families that, whilst not dragon riders themselves, interbred regularly with dragon riding families. It could have the same gfx culture and character names as High Valyrian but with a lower dragon taming chance (but still higher than Westerosi/Essosi Valyrian). Bastard/Low Valyrian dynasties would become Noble Valyrian by marrying regularly with High Valyrians.


That's basically what Western Valyrian already represents. Velaryon, Celtigar, Orys Baratheon (who seems to have been a bastard on a native Westerosi girl), and his master-at-arms Qohorys who were given the remnants of Harrenhal (might have the name wrong but not re-checking) are the only Western Valyrian dynasties mentioned. So there's no real need to differentiate among them further.
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Re: Century of Blood - Celtigars High Valyrian Flag

PostPosted by ManicMayo » Mon Aug 28, 2017 16:00

Damocles wrote:That's basically what Western Valyrian already represents. Velaryon, Celtigar, Orys Baratheon (who seems to have been a bastard on a native Westerosi girl), and his master-at-arms Qohorys who were given the remnants of Harrenhal (might have the name wrong but not re-checking) are the only Western Valyrian dynasties mentioned. So there's no real need to differentiate among them further.


I disagree. House Celtigar and House Velaryon, two houses you want to see as the same culture, couldn't be more different. The Celtigars use Westerosi names and are assumed to be entirely Andal in their appearance whereas the Velaryons use traditional Valyrian names and are known to retain their Valyrian features.

A new Valyrian culture with a dragon taming chance that sits between High Valyrian and the bastard Valyrian cultures would serve to simulate the position of House Velaryon. A lesser Valyrian family that keeps its features strong and has an increased chance of taming dragons through frequent intermarrying with a High Valyrian family.
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Re: Century of Blood - Celtigars High Valyrian Flag

PostPosted by Damocles » Tue Aug 29, 2017 03:10

ManicMayo wrote:
Damocles wrote:That's basically what Western Valyrian already represents. Velaryon, Celtigar, Orys Baratheon (who seems to have been a bastard on a native Westerosi girl), and his master-at-arms Qohorys who were given the remnants of Harrenhal (might have the name wrong but not re-checking) are the only Western Valyrian dynasties mentioned. So there's no real need to differentiate among them further.


I disagree. House Celtigar and House Velaryon, two houses you want to see as the same culture, couldn't be more different. The Celtigars use Westerosi names and are assumed to be entirely Andal in their appearance whereas the Velaryons use traditional Valyrian names and are known to retain their Valyrian features.

A new Valyrian culture with a dragon taming chance that sits between High Valyrian and the bastard Valyrian cultures would serve to simulate the position of House Velaryon. A lesser Valyrian family that keeps its features strong and has an increased chance of taming dragons through frequent intermarrying with a High Valyrian family.


If they're as different as you say they are, then House Celtigar should be Stormlander, or Crownlander culture or what have you.

Personally, I think it's only happenstance that the Targaryens ended up marrying more Velaryons than otherwise. We only know of a few marriages. Most of their 'prominence' has to do with Corlys Velaryon, and his various liasons, and who his chidlren married. After him, the family's fortunes saw a steep decline. (Which GRRM hinted at, given that Corlys' castle that he built with wealth from the east was named 'High Tide').

It could just as easily have been the Celtigars. And a better solution still, would be as I said, to not make dragon taming chance based more on whether you have ancestors who were successful dragonriders.

Still. I don't disagree with the heart of your assertion. Any solution, no matter how cumbersome, would be better than leaving them as High Valyrians, as if they were a Dragonlord family. Because if the Celtigars and Velaryons are High Valyrians at the start of CoB, then we might as well make the Lysene High Valyrians too.

In that sense, anything that sees the Targaryens as the only legitimate High Valyrian culture in the west, is a good solution.

And keep in mind, Sunglass should be right out. Them having the High Valyrian tag is ridiculous, given the only thing we know about them is their ancient devotion to the Seven. They should be Stormlanders and vassals of Massey's Hook at game start.
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Re: Century of Blood - Celtigars High Valyrian Flag

PostPosted by tirion1987 » Tue Aug 29, 2017 10:49

Westerosi Valyrian gfx should be modified if you plan to make Velaryons a part of them. Hell, even if you don't. In the books dragonseeds are noted to look like Valyrians, in the mod 99% of Westerosi Valyrians are brown haired peasants.
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Re: Century of Blood - Celtigars High Valyrian Flag

PostPosted by JDSweet » Wed Sep 06, 2017 17:19

Damocles wrote:
ManicMayo wrote:
Damocles wrote:That's basically what Western Valyrian already represents. Velaryon, Celtigar, Orys Baratheon (who seems to have been a bastard on a native Westerosi girl), and his master-at-arms Qohorys who were given the remnants of Harrenhal (might have the name wrong but not re-checking) are the only Western Valyrian dynasties mentioned. So there's no real need to differentiate among them further.


I disagree. House Celtigar and House Velaryon, two houses you want to see as the same culture, couldn't be more different. The Celtigars use Westerosi names and are assumed to be entirely Andal in their appearance whereas the Velaryons use traditional Valyrian names and are known to retain their Valyrian features.

A new Valyrian culture with a dragon taming chance that sits between High Valyrian and the bastard Valyrian cultures would serve to simulate the position of House Velaryon. A lesser Valyrian family that keeps its features strong and has an increased chance of taming dragons through frequent intermarrying with a High Valyrian family.


If they're as different as you say they are, then House Celtigar should be Stormlander, or Crownlander culture or what have you.

Personally, I think it's only happenstance that the Targaryens ended up marrying more Velaryons than otherwise. We only know of a few marriages. Most of their 'prominence' has to do with Corlys Velaryon, and his various liasons, and who his chidlren married. After him, the family's fortunes saw a steep decline. (Which GRRM hinted at, given that Corlys' castle that he built with wealth from the east was named 'High Tide').

It could just as easily have been the Celtigars. And a better solution still, would be as I said, to not make dragon taming chance based more on whether you have ancestors who were successful dragonriders.

Still. I don't disagree with the heart of your assertion. Any solution, no matter how cumbersome, would be better than leaving them as High Valyrians, as if they were a Dragonlord family. Because if the Celtigars and Velaryons are High Valyrians at the start of CoB, then we might as well make the Lysene High Valyrians too.

In that sense, anything that sees the Targaryens as the only legitimate High Valyrian culture in the west, is a good solution.

And keep in mind, Sunglass should be right out. Them having the High Valyrian tag is ridiculous, given the only thing we know about them is their ancient devotion to the Seven. They should be Stormlanders and vassals of Massey's Hook at game start.


The Targaryens married Velaryons more frequently because, presumably, because during the period of time between the Doom and the Conquest they were a compromise between pragmatism and blood purity. They were obviously a noble Valyrian house of lesser blood, AND they possessed what was probably one of the most powerful navies in the Narrow Sea, whereas the Celtigars and their many failed attempts at subjugating the lords of the Claw, reeked of failure.

Post-Conquest, the Velaryons apparently profited greatly and increased their power via their blood connections to Aegon the Conqueror, whose mother was a half-Targaryen Velaryon. The Velaryons controlled the royal fleet, and besieging the capital without either having a dragon or controlling the sea is a pointless endeavor. The Targaryen/Velaryon relationship was pragmatic until the collapse of Velaryon power post-Dance and their rapid decline from favor following the reign of Daeron I and the death of the Oakenfist.

As for their culture... I am personally of the opinion that they should remain high valyrian. A smaller bonus should be given for dragon taming based on culture, and we should move over to a more trait based approach to mirror the seeming inability of some Targaryens to hatch and tame dragons. The Velaryons should then stay High Valyrian to retain the Targaryen-ish names. While the Celtigars keep Westerosi Valyrian to reflect their more Westerosi names that are still somewhat unique (Ardrian, for example).

In my opinion, there should be two new traits:

Dragon Gene
Random Occurence Chance : 0.001%
Inheritance Chance : 75%

Double Dragon Gene
Doesn't randomly occur
Inheritance Chance : 50%
Can happen when two characters with either the dragon gene or double dragon gene produce a child. These are mix and matchable, so if one parent has double dragon gene and the other has dragon gene, it still works.

"Dragon Gene" would allow you to have a chance to successfully tame a dragon. However, people with only the "Dragon Gene" trait would be unable to hatch new eggs and could only tame already-alive dragons, fitting with the seeming inability of certain Targaryens (Daeron I, Baelor I, Viserys II, and all recent historical Targaryens except Daenerys) to hatch dragon eggs.

Targaryens on birth automatically get an event 90% of the time giving them the Dragon Gene trait if they don't have it. This is to allow almost all Targaryens to at least be able to tame them (but still leaving room for Targaryens that cannot tame dragons, like Vaegon the Dragonless.)

If somebody with double dragon gene marries somebody without a double dragon gene, than the trait only gets passed on 20% of the time, and degrades to a mere regular dragon gene 20% of the time.
Last edited by JDSweet on Wed Sep 06, 2017 21:55, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Century of Blood - Celtigars High Valyrian Flag

PostPosted by PallyWC » Wed Sep 06, 2017 17:48

whilst were discussing eastern/western valyrians...can something be bonused onto westerosi valyrians like they have a hard on for foot knights or some such to balance the awesomesauce of war elephants...

also non-valyrians should not be able to dynastic stability themselves to house targaryen....as it's blasphemy...
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