Season 7 Episode 7 FINALE (Spoilers)

The place to talk about the books and the TV show. Beware of spoilers!

Re: Season 7 Episode 7 FINALE (Spoilers)

PostPosted by blackninja9939 » Mon Aug 28, 2017 19:50

I thought it was great, would have been nice to not have two Aegons though but it seems they are merging the characters like they did with Griff and Jorah especially with the Golden Company coming in :o

And in moderator mod:
If you feel like someone is a dick for their opinion on the show then do not be a dick yourself and voice how wrong they are just for holding that opinion. We all have opinions on what the show has or has not done well and you all have the right to voice said opinions.
Debate the plot points, sure. Call it crap, sure. Say it is the best thing ever, sure. Have a go at someone for saying one of those points, nope.
Graduate Content Designer on Project Caligula

My amazingly empty Twitter account: @blackninja9939

Posts edited in this colour were done by me for moderation.

My Sub-Mods:
Bloodlines
More Decisions
Colonise Valyiria and Challenge to Duel
More Bookmarks
User avatar
blackninja9939
Moderator
 
Posts: 5688
Joined: Tue Oct 01, 2013 10:50
Location: England

Re: Season 7 Episode 7 FINALE (Spoilers)

PostPosted by Syrio » Mon Aug 28, 2017 20:09

While everyone is talking about Jaime nearly getting killed, Tyrion supposedly striking a deal with Cersei etc, I'm here wondering if Bronn will ever get to have his castle :(
Syrio
 
Posts: 36
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2015 15:50

Re: Season 7 Episode 7 FINALE (Spoilers)

PostPosted by Mirith » Mon Aug 28, 2017 21:13

I liked the entirety of the episode. What a finale. And 1,21 hour episodes rule!!!

But after that many scenes... I wonder, if Jaime would travel to Daenerys and inform her about betrayal. Or simply be quiet, fight and also face Golden Company.


And... Will they really include elephants, real elephant in next season?
Mirith
 
Posts: 116
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2016 23:19

Re: Season 7 Episode 7 FINALE (Spoilers)

PostPosted by NTFTH » Mon Aug 28, 2017 22:02

Blitzbirne91 wrote:If i remember correctly the names of rhaegar's children are not mentioned in the show or am i wrong ?

If the names are not mentioned in the show i can go with the "aegon" thing, although i dont think this is the best name for him...he is nota conquerer. He is a savior of the world.


Nope, they're mentioned by name by Thoros when they capture the Hound.
NTFTH
 
Posts: 39
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2016 17:59

Re: Season 7 Episode 7 FINALE (Spoilers)

PostPosted by LancelotLoire » Mon Aug 28, 2017 22:26

As long as these Elephants aren't in the same style of Lord of The Rings and that King Arthur movie by Guy Richie.
User avatar
LancelotLoire
 
Posts: 2700
Joined: Sat Mar 30, 2013 16:32

Re: Season 7 Episode 7 FINALE (Spoilers)

PostPosted by Mirith » Mon Aug 28, 2017 22:55

LancelotLoire wrote:As long as these Elephants aren't in the same style of Lord of The Rings and that King Arthur movie by Guy Richie.


Well... if I remember... there isn't Legolas defying gravity in GoT xD. That would be probably even worse, if he ever existed.
(Plus "elves" are probably extinct race in GoT... but who knows)
And LoTR elephants are huge.

But really. If they are going to use real elephants in some way, their budget will be probably even bigger than in this season!
Mirith
 
Posts: 116
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2016 23:19

Re: Season 7 Episode 7 FINALE (Spoilers)

PostPosted by Arthurius Targaryen » Mon Aug 28, 2017 23:03

Look, i personally did not watch the first 4 seasons of the show, but by the fifth i said, what the hell, ive read the books, this seems to be doing well, lets watch.

And for the record the writing was good up until this season.

Im sorry, but i feel like the show writers surrendered to the fandom in general and wrote based on what apparently most ppl wanted. There were better ways to give the Others an Ice Dragon. This isn't Skyrim so there is no "fast travel", and they decided to dump a ton of the plot points that made the show a rich story.
You can't make that criticism if you don't actually watch it, and calling me out in this way basically puts me in a lose lose lose, situation.
Either A) i didn't watch it so i have no right to critique, b) watched it, hated where the writing went and the fact that that didn't concern the viewing audience at all(was more motivated by the audience than the writers imo) which makes me an asshole, or C) i watched it, apparently im a hypocrite for hating it but still watching it, also making me an asshole.
I don't hate the show, its just the expedience of the writing is pretty annoying this season. They are making millions of dollars on it, so i dunno why as a writer they don't wanna milk that.
Putting down someones criticism of ppl is the exact same experience i had amongst so called "academics" in college, so go figure when i thought "academic" meant they are supposed to allow divisive opinions to be maturely heard in a classroom with other adults.
Ignorance is Bliss - Various ppl.

"Remember to Pillage, BEFORE you burn" - Viking Guide to Pillaging
User avatar
Arthurius Targaryen
 
Posts: 76
Joined: Sat Jun 08, 2013 07:43

Re: Season 7 Episode 7 FINALE (Spoilers)

PostPosted by Mirith » Tue Aug 29, 2017 00:14

Surrendering to random isn't always a bad thing.
You can't please everyone. But you probably go the way most do.

And exactly THAT is the good thing about show. It's different.
Imagine it as alternate version of Westeros, where history was changed there and there.
Now you're stuck with alternate version. And this may result in difference. With this difference between show and book, you wont be bored by similarities and you can enjoy both.

I can't see that many flaws, since it's TV show. They have a budget, they're paying 500k+ per episode for actors. And if they tried to do everything as in books, well be still stuck at third season.
TV shows can become pretty annoying If there's no progress. Or very small. No hype build up, longer waiting time and general annoyance.



Fast travel, huh? Okey. How can you possibly measure time? How can you possibly guess, if events happened one after another.
The Wall could've collapsed, when they were talking in Dragon pit.

They sure can put days and hours as explanation text, but that would've been like with a weird army action movies. You know, movies where's something like "Washington, 11:00, Saturday"

Although, sure. Some scenes and plot points were little rushed. But what you can do. They need to pay actors, staff, they have deadlines and huge fan base. They just can't have 30 minutes on every plot.

In my personal opinion, show is great. At least there's a visual tool, great time killer, discussion topic for many adults and more.
Mirith
 
Posts: 116
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2016 23:19

Re: Season 7 Episode 7 FINALE (Spoilers)

PostPosted by SinStar87 » Tue Aug 29, 2017 00:55

Arthurius Targaryen wrote:...

You didn't critique the show when you called those of us who enjoyed it sheeple, and yes belittling others for watching it while you are watching it yourself is hypocritical.
Last edited by SinStar87 on Tue Aug 29, 2017 04:30, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
SinStar87
 
Posts: 3129
Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2013 17:24

Re: Season 7 Episode 7 FINALE (Spoilers)

PostPosted by Specialist » Tue Aug 29, 2017 01:18

Mirith wrote:Fast travel, huh? Okey. How can you possibly measure time? How can you possibly guess, if events happened one after another.
The Wall could've collapsed, when they were talking in Dragon pit.

Sometimes, sure. Let's just look at the S7E6 plot though.

The Fellowship err Snow Team Six, uh... Snow Team Six plus 7 Random Folks runs to the middle of the lake while flashing back and forth between them and Gendry running. Gendry makes it to the wall and sends a raven. All good so far.

Next, the raven has to travel roughly 2,000 miles one-way to get to Dragonstone and Daenerys. To give some buffer for the plot, let's say 1,500 miles one-way. The fastest birds alive can only travel around 60mph for long periods. I'm willing to give concession to the plot and say that these ravens are as fast as Peregrine Falcons for sustained distances (not the 200+ mph dive speed, but the horizontal speed of around 60-65mph). This means that the trek from the Wall to Dragonstone would take 1500miles/65mph = 23 hours -- minimum.

Once Dany gets the message, she has to jump on Drogon and fly north another 1,500 miles. Without any protection against g-forces and/or the high-speed winds, Dany couldn't move all that fast, but let's just focus on Drogon. I assume that dragons move fast, my guess is around 250 +/- 50. Even if Drogon can move 300mph, that trip would take 5 hours.

Total trek time = 28 hours. That is with concessions for physical distance, magic, Dany being crushed to death, and plot mechanics.

So, we are expected to assume that Jon & Friends stayed on a frozen rock in the middle of a lake with no shelter and no fire for 28 hours straight and the only one who froze to death was the drunk priest with a gaping hole in his chest? That's not plausible. I don't care if the Wildlings regularly lived in bad conditions, they are always seen in-show with fire and shelter. The temperature needed to freeze the lake would have killed them in less than 2 hours as exposed than they were if they were normal people. As hardy Northmen and Wildlings, maybe Tormund, Jorah, and Jon would make it out alive, but Beric and Sandor are dead. No amount of logical excuses allow Beric and Sandor to remain alive in any form or fashion except as members of the WW army.

I don't mind time jumps that aren't explained but are plausible (like multiple events happening concurrently but being shown sequentially), I have a problem with time jumps that abuse the gritty reality of the world for the sake of the plot.
Although, sure. Some scenes and plot points were little rushed. But what you can do. They need to pay actors, staff, they have deadlines and huge fan base. They just can't have 30 minutes on every plot.

I actually don't mind the fast pace. The only thing I thought was rushed this season was the Dany + Jon romance. Had they given that arc an extra 15-30 minutes, it would have been much better.

In my personal opinion, show is great. At least there's a visual tool, great time killer, discussion topic for many adults and more.

Absolutely. I love the show and will continue to love it barring a really bad ending.

When I say "really bad," I mean D&D making it a fairytale ending rather than a bittersweet ending. Even then, I won't hate the show, but I'll act like the finale never happened.
My Mods:
The Legions of Ghiscar
Mixed Valyrian Ethnicities

Toccs wrote:The AI is stupid
User avatar
Specialist
 
Posts: 339
Joined: Thu Aug 27, 2015 16:14

Re: Season 7 Episode 7 FINALE (Spoilers)

PostPosted by Mirith » Tue Aug 29, 2017 04:01

Specialist wrote:
Mirith wrote:Fast travel, huh? Okey. How can you possibly measure time? How can you possibly guess, if events happened one after another.
The Wall could've collapsed, when they were talking in Dragon pit.

Sometimes, sure. Let's just look at the S7E6 plot though.

The Fellowship err Snow Team Six, uh... Snow Team Six plus 7 Random Folks runs to the middle of the lake while flashing back and forth between them and Gendry running. Gendry makes it to the wall and sends a raven. All good so far.

Next, the raven has to travel roughly 2,000 miles one-way to get to Dragonstone and Daenerys. To give some buffer for the plot, let's say 1,500 miles one-way. The fastest birds alive can only travel around 60mph for long periods. I'm willing to give concession to the plot and say that these ravens are as fast as Peregrine Falcons for sustained distances (not the 200+ mph dive speed, but the horizontal speed of around 60-65mph). This means that the trek from the Wall to Dragonstone would take 1500miles/65mph = 23 hours -- minimum.

Once Dany gets the message, she has to jump on Drogon and fly north another 1,500 miles. Without any protection against g-forces and/or the high-speed winds, Dany couldn't move all that fast, but let's just focus on Drogon. I assume that dragons move fast, my guess is around 250 +/- 50. Even if Drogon can move 300mph, that trip would take 5 hours.

Total trek time = 28 hours. That is with concessions for physical distance, magic, Dany being crushed to death, and plot mechanics.

So, we are expected to assume that Jon & Friends stayed on a frozen rock in the middle of a lake with no shelter and no fire for 28 hours straight and the only one who froze to death was the drunk priest with a gaping hole in his chest? That's not plausible. I don't care if the Wildlings regularly lived in bad conditions, they are always seen in-show with fire and shelter. The temperature needed to freeze the lake would have killed them in less than 2 hours as exposed than they were if they were normal people. As hardy Northmen and Wildlings, maybe Tormund, Jorah, and Jon would make it out alive, but Beric and Sandor are dead. No amount of logical excuses allow Beric and Sandor to remain alive in any form or fashion except as members of the WW army.

I don't mind time jumps that aren't explained but are plausible (like multiple events happening concurrently but being shown sequentially), I have a problem with time jumps that abuse the gritty reality of the world for the sake of the plot.
Although, sure. Some scenes and plot points were little rushed. But what you can do. They need to pay actors, staff, they have deadlines and huge fan base. They just can't have 30 minutes on every plot.

I actually don't mind the fast pace. The only thing I thought was rushed this season was the Dany + Jon romance. Had they given that arc an extra 15-30 minutes, it would have been much better.

In my personal opinion, show is great. At least there's a visual tool, great time killer, discussion topic for many adults and more.

Absolutely. I love the show and will continue to love it barring a really bad ending.

When I say "really bad," I mean D&D making it a fairytale ending rather than a bittersweet ending. Even then, I won't hate the show, but I'll act like the finale never happened.


I would argue again with that.
You say raven was sent. And then it had to fly around 23 hours. Okey, okey.
But what if it really did fly 23 hours?
Gendry arrived at nightime. Jon's RPG gr9uo has been there over night and probably day.
And if I'm not mistaken, Daenerys arrives at nightime. Or close to nightime.
That could be one whole day and more. Wights and others never thought about dragons, they never though help would arrive. They could've won by just waiting there... watching all freeze to death.

Maybe, juuuust maybe those hours were shortened a little, but they probably waited for some long time. Show didn't specify anything about that. Or maybe they were shortened from 28 hours to 17-20. Because magic. Or Jon and friends have incredible freeze immunity. O___o. And others don't care about killing them with bunch of ice spears, instead of waiting.
(To be completely honest... I kinda wanted Beric to die, just out of pure logic. His priest died. He could've sacrificed himself to let them flee... Or just died. Dunno. I like him, but also didn't make quite sense to let him live)

It's just TV show stuff. Writers are also people. Unlike book readers, they dont have enough material to make everything happen with GRRM logic. If only George finished those books, filimng the show wouldve been so much easier.
And honestly, as stupid Jon's RPG quest was, there wasnt other way of doing that, without major causality. Plus... c'mon. Bunch of them will probably die in season 8. (And if ideas on Jon's place, I would've dug a corpse, travelled a little far to north and let it reanimate. If that would've been even possible. Still better than suicide mission :D)

And yep. I also hope for little darker ending. All can't be sunshine and rainbows. GRRM promised bitter-sweet ending.
Mirith
 
Posts: 116
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2016 23:19

Re: Season 7 Episode 7 FINALE (Spoilers)

PostPosted by Arthurius Targaryen » Tue Aug 29, 2017 04:37

Specialist pretty much summed up what i meant by Expedience in the writing this season. Heck, even as much as i hate entertainment news (anything) across the board, a hollywood reporter article pointed out the exact same problem.

Maybe im doing a confirmation bias, but again, the writers played the show to the fans, but are being lazy because we all know they could have made this season 10 episodes no problem, and its not like its for want of money.

And possibly more confirmation bias, if the fandom just sits there and generally from what i've seen doesn't have a problem with where the writing went this season, and is satisfied that their interests were gratified, despite the fact that most of the viewership are the same number of intensely devoted people who have watched all the previous seasons and had a held interest in the show, doesn't that kinda say they were more willing to go along with whatever was being shown them, rather than call out the stuff that just went way beyond plausible. I mean, its their time, their choice to make it popular, their power, doesn't that kinda say "they're meaningless, lets just instant gratification them so we don't get a bad rap and keep our jobs."
To me it says, we'd rather collectively have our senses gratified than care about the logic of a show we the viewers have invested so much time in. If thats the truth than fine just say it.

Again, if i didn't watch the show, my opinion would be invalid because i didn't watch it. If i watch the show, but have one criticism of it and of other fans (much like most ppl do with cult type shows, like Star Trek, etc etc) apparently that makes me a bad person too. So either way theres no winning that argument, and it just amounts to trying to shame me because i spoke up a little differently and voiced my opinion of ppl. To me thats the same kind of reaction the "academics" had when bigger more divisive subjects got brought up in classes, its either don't talk about it, or if you do, you can't offend anyone.

Also i mean, the show is great, its probably right up there for best tv show of all time category, its just i mean, the previous seasons (which i did watch all of during the times HBO showed them all in sequence) all made good choices, and decent extensions of the plot the either fit to the books, or showed genuine writing skill, not lets speed it up because we don't wanna do this anymore.

Its also implied above that i hate the show, which i don't and never said that anywhere.
And to sum up : If you played the show to the fans, and most of the fans didn't care about the short season, the expedient writing and some of the worser plot (Littlefinger as pointed our by Lancelot), then what exactly are the fans influencing? Absolutely nothing, and the writers are just gauging their audience enough so that they keep the viewership while they do less work, and only a few ppl notice.
Last edited by Arthurius Targaryen on Tue Aug 29, 2017 04:52, edited 1 time in total.
Ignorance is Bliss - Various ppl.

"Remember to Pillage, BEFORE you burn" - Viking Guide to Pillaging
User avatar
Arthurius Targaryen
 
Posts: 76
Joined: Sat Jun 08, 2013 07:43

Re: Season 7 Episode 7 FINALE (Spoilers)

PostPosted by SinStar87 » Tue Aug 29, 2017 04:48

Arthurius Targaryen wrote:...

Ok, so you think the show is great but the people who like it are mindless and weak-willed. Got it >>
User avatar
SinStar87
 
Posts: 3129
Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2013 17:24

Re: Season 7 Episode 7 FINALE (Spoilers)

PostPosted by SinStar87 » Tue Aug 29, 2017 05:04

What words did I put in your mouth?
The writers are being lazy, so they choose expedience over reasoning, and apparently enough of the viewership are big enough sheeple consumers to not point this out.

What do you think sheeple means exactly?
User avatar
SinStar87
 
Posts: 3129
Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2013 17:24

Re: Season 7 Episode 7 FINALE (Spoilers)

PostPosted by Arthurius Targaryen » Tue Aug 29, 2017 05:12

Sheeple = Being able to be led along by ppl in so called "control".

To me it doesn't mean, you lack a conscience, or wants, or the ability to think, but i mean cmon, if they're are supposed 10 million devoted fans who have been following the series year in, year out, doesn't that kinda wave a big fat Hollywood flag in their face of "you opinions don't matter, we're just gonna write some bs plot into the show and you'll accept it because, xyz or we said so?."

I can like the show in general, but when ppl let the writers get away with what they did this season in general, it kinda says the consumer has no power, and if they don't criticise the points they didn't like, and the ppl that allow this to be ok, then the show gets worse and worse. In a larger sense, this is an analogy to government, and the general lack of acceptance of criticism of anything in America as a whole.

Can you stop the one liners plz, i feel like your just trying to troll me rather than care about the actual point here.
Ignorance is Bliss - Various ppl.

"Remember to Pillage, BEFORE you burn" - Viking Guide to Pillaging
User avatar
Arthurius Targaryen
 
Posts: 76
Joined: Sat Jun 08, 2013 07:43

Re: Season 7 Episode 7 FINALE (Spoilers)

PostPosted by SinStar87 » Tue Aug 29, 2017 05:26

More words don't make a point better. As Orwell wrote; Never use a long word where a short one will do and If it is possible to cut a word out, always cut it out.

As for complaints, the biggest one I've been seeing has been, stuff seems to be happening too quickly. So to you people are "Being able to be led along by ppl in so called 'control'" because they don't care that something only seemed to take a day rather than the two or three you think it should have taken.
User avatar
SinStar87
 
Posts: 3129
Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2013 17:24

Re: Season 7 Episode 7 FINALE (Spoilers)

PostPosted by Arthurius Targaryen » Tue Aug 29, 2017 05:31

Dunno how the first sentence is valid, i mean that was one of the rules for writing Orwell wrote in "Politics and The English Language" pg 175 A Collection Essays by George Orwell, 1954 pub Doubleday Anchor Books. ( i have this old copy so don't try me)
Second, then show me how the fanbase actually is voicing that concern as valid evidence and ill retract the sheeple comment. Otherwise, watching the twitter feeds after Season 7 episode 6 and even the finale really did not give me that sense of the fans you are trying to convey.

I used an analogy to explain how im not equating sheeple fans simply wanting to be entertained(rapt in with lazy writing and writers), with how most of the people who voted for Trump are not bad people.
I saw your wall of post, it was mainly political.

My point is that, if you're gonna devote time, money(to buy HBO) and years to watching this series, and your only reaction, to say the convenient way Viserion died and got turned into a zombie(I think) is, OMG Viserion died, cry cry, as most of Twitter did about after episode 6, it doesn't really say to me all the above things invested in that show from you as a viewer matter.

Or perhaps im simply in the old TV mode of criticism, and because of the Net Era , the only mode is, entertainment, screw the writing. I.e Viewership validates the shows, therefore any criticism to the contrary or of the fans therein is simply invalid.
Ignorance is Bliss - Various ppl.

"Remember to Pillage, BEFORE you burn" - Viking Guide to Pillaging
User avatar
Arthurius Targaryen
 
Posts: 76
Joined: Sat Jun 08, 2013 07:43

Re: Season 7 Episode 7 FINALE (Spoilers)

PostPosted by Toccs » Tue Aug 29, 2017 05:44

OK We're going to try this one last time. Keep it on topic, keep it respectful. If I get one more pm about someone in this thread I'm just going to close it.
Smart and dumb are two sides of the same coin. Every time a new Stark is born the gods flip a coin . . . and it always seems to land on dumb.
User avatar
Toccs
Moderator
 
Posts: 1510
Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2012 02:38

Re: Season 7 Episode 7 FINALE (Spoilers)

PostPosted by SinStar87 » Tue Aug 29, 2017 05:59

Alright.
The only real problem I've had with the show is the zombies, they are annoying and draining from the story, but they are from the books so nothing I can do about it. That said, Viserion getting dropped was a cool way of getting the ice dragon, bit of foreshadowing when Drogon was picked before was a nice touch as well. It taking the wall down was also nice.
Only other gripes are, rather minor ones, the magic freezing/unfreezing lake, I've no problem with them surviving in the open since Jon and Ygritte already showed people can survive overnight in the open without issue, and plot-magicing Cersei into a viable threat this last season.
I liked how Petyr died, he grew over confident in his ability to manipulate but failed to recognize Sansa had learned from him, even though she saved him in the Eerie by manipulating the Vale Lords.
User avatar
SinStar87
 
Posts: 3129
Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2013 17:24

Re: Season 7 Episode 7 FINALE (Spoilers)

PostPosted by Toccs » Tue Aug 29, 2017 06:07

SinStar87 wrote:and plot-magicing Cersei into a viable threat this last season.


I don't know, I think that's going to be pretty much straight from the books. No doubt Cersei is the shadow woman laughing wit Euron over Westeros' corpse in Damphair's vision.
Smart and dumb are two sides of the same coin. Every time a new Stark is born the gods flip a coin . . . and it always seems to land on dumb.
User avatar
Toccs
Moderator
 
Posts: 1510
Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2012 02:38

PreviousNext

Return to Story and Lore

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests