Joffrey/Tommen becoming Baratheons after winning wars

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Joffrey/Tommen becoming Baratheons after winning wars

PostPosted by lukyn223 » Sat Sep 09, 2017 13:41

I have a problem with Joffrey and Tommen after winning wars still stays as Lannisters. The only way how to change it is by console command and add trait bastard and then legitimate yourself but it didn´t worrk on Myrcella. Isn´t possible to add event when you choose if you wanna stay as Lannister or becoming Baratheon?
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Re: Joffrey/Tommen becoming Baratheons after winning wars

PostPosted by Remyw » Sat Sep 09, 2017 14:58

I actually like this idea. The Baratheon dynasty would die out upon the death of Stannis/Shireen if Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella would be considered bastards. However, if that would be commonly accepted, surely the people of Westeros would be demanding some answers from Cersei/Jaime.

Then again, the Lannisters are proud lions so it wouldn't be strange if Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella would be 'proud' to be bastards of incest. And knowing their traits, they certainly wouldn't consider abdicating because of it.

Therefore the idea of an event for Cersei/Joffrey/Tommen/Myrcella AFTER the WOTFK is pretty good. Make them choose if they want to uphold the Baratheon dynasty or (considering they know 90% sure they're Lannisters) take the Lannister name for themselves.
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Re: Joffrey/Tommen becoming Baratheons after winning wars

PostPosted by Valor1 » Sat Sep 09, 2017 22:10

Im pretty sure that Joffrey considered himself more a Baratheon than Lannister in fact he would flaunt around how he is the son of Robert Baratheon so it would make sense for him to be Baratheon after war as for Tommen he was pretty tame so he would probably be influenced to be more of a Lannister.For now the mod devs said that they made them Lannister so the have support from the other Lannister for gameplay reasons.
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Re: Joffrey/Tommen becoming Baratheons after winning wars

PostPosted by Otama » Sat Sep 09, 2017 22:30

I modded a fake Baratheon dynasty that uses the split Lannister/Baratheon Coat of Arms. Maybe the same could be done? There were really no issues with Tywin not joining their wars, and I don't think it should be a permanently set thing anyway. If after War of Five Kings is won, successors of Tywin might not be so willing as to support someone like Joffrey. Even with Tommen in AFFC, it's possible after Cersei is long gone, for some Lannister to decide that the Tyrells are having too much influence on the "Baratheons" of King's Landing.

Valor1 wrote:Im pretty sure that Joffrey considered himself more a Baratheon than Lannister in fact he would flaunt around how he is the son of Robert Baratheon so it would make sense for him to be Baratheon after war as for Tommen he was pretty tame so he would probably be influenced to be more of a Lannister.For now the mod devs said that they made them Lannister so the have support from the other Lannister for gameplay reasons.

Agreed, Joffrey was proud to be a stag. Even brought it up numerous times on both show and books how Robert was superior to Tywin. A lot of his mental problems come from trying really hard (and failing) to impress his "father". On that note, if you win as Joffrey and Tywin is alive there should be an option to give Tommen over to him as heir to Casterly Rock and he can adopt the Lannister name and be groomed by Tywin. If either Jaime is dead or refuses to leave the Kingsguard.
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Re: Joffrey/Tommen becoming Baratheons after winning wars

PostPosted by Soladept » Sun Sep 10, 2017 05:30

Otama wrote:I modded a fake Baratheon dynasty that uses the split Lannister/Baratheon Coat of Arms. Maybe the same could be done? There were really no issues with Tywin not joining their wars, and I don't think it should be a permanently set thing anyway. If after War of Five Kings is won, successors of Tywin might not be so willing as to support someone like Joffrey. Even with Tommen in AFFC, it's possible after Cersei is long gone, for some Lannister to decide that the Tyrells are having too much influence on the "Baratheons" of King's Landing.

Valor1 wrote:Im pretty sure that Joffrey considered himself more a Baratheon than Lannister in fact he would flaunt around how he is the son of Robert Baratheon so it would make sense for him to be Baratheon after war as for Tommen he was pretty tame so he would probably be influenced to be more of a Lannister.For now the mod devs said that they made them Lannister so the have support from the other Lannister for gameplay reasons.

Agreed, Joffrey was proud to be a stag. Even brought it up numerous times on both show and books how Robert was superior to Tywin. A lot of his mental problems come from trying really hard (and failing) to impress his "father". On that note, if you win as Joffrey and Tywin is alive there should be an option to give Tommen over to him as heir to Casterly Rock and he can adopt the Lannister name and be groomed by Tywin. If either Jaime is dead or refuses to leave the Kingsguard.


there are issues with wars, not the prescripted ones but usualy if you play Dany or Aegon the Iron Throne is usualy fighting alone with the exceptuon of the attached army bug inflating IT armys, in ACOK neither Tywin or Mace join against Dany and the old reasons for having Joffery and others be Lannisters was based on Dynastic NAPS/Alliances being Automatic, which was changed some CK2 updates ago

right now when the IT is in multiple wars vassals will choose which war to get involved in in the Megawar system, and they are usualy not involved in all the wars at once unless they get CTAed by an IT ally. during Clash or Crows most of the westerosi will get involved in the Northern or Stannis wars, and neglect to get involved in Targ invasions until their preexisting wars end. basicly when the war you backed the king on ends you have an event fire to involve you into the next one, and it daisy chains until all wars are done,

basicly, being same Dynasty does nothing useful for alliances after conclave, and sometimes as joffery i actualy have tywin refuse to ally.

Honeslty, I dont see any point in Joffery and his siblings being Lannister in game anymore unless they get exposed as bastards.
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Re: Joffrey/Tommen becoming Baratheons after winning wars

PostPosted by lukyn223 » Sun Sep 10, 2017 14:28

Or maybe same kind of event as for R+L=J and choice between staying as Lannister or honor your father and addopt House Baratheon or create new dynasty Lannister-Baratheon.
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Re: Joffrey/Tommen becoming Baratheons after winning wars

PostPosted by DorlasAnther » Sun Sep 10, 2017 17:36

Honestly, the best way IMO would be to have separate House Baratheon for Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella since the beginning. Alliances work differently now and you often even see Cersei attacking Tommen (at least I saw it a lot), so what´s the point of them being the same dynasty? It would also simulate them being different than Lannisters, even though (besides Joffrey who idolizes his "daddy") they pretty much are Lannisters. Right now, all three children may die and player could not care less, because there are about 30 more Lannisters ready to inherit.
Which is also weird, because (storywise) once Tywin is gone, Lannister power is extremely reduced. If all three children died, I would see it as completely normal if Tywin appointed himself or Cersei as new ruler and everybody would keep their mouths shut. But without him, Lannisters are just another house. Still strong and rich, but not that special compared to Tyrells, Arryns or Martells. Lannisters inheriting the throne, or even pressing their claims for said throne (Which probably has something to do with "Lannisters" sitting there? At least I guess), is just weird.
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Re: Joffrey/Tommen becoming Baratheons after winning wars

PostPosted by Otama » Mon Sep 11, 2017 18:22

I agree. Making them a member of a fake Baratheon dynasty is the easiest to do. You COULD have them start as one called Lannister-Baratheon and then once all other Baratheons are defeated either make them a part of the mainline one or to honor House Lannister, but I think just making them be a fake Baratheon dynasty is easiest. It also prevents odd things like Lannisters getting a claim on the throne, which they really don't have. If they gain the throne as Cersei in the show, it would be a claim by conquest, not blood.

Here's an example of my added fake Baratheon dynasty, I think it works perfectly. I just haven't worked out how to convert them to Lannisters if they lose the war.

Spoiler: show
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Re: Joffrey/Tommen becoming Baratheons after winning wars

PostPosted by imp » Mon Sep 11, 2017 18:27

DorlasAnther wrote:Which is also weird, because (storywise) once Tywin is gone, Lannister power is extremely reduced. If all three children died, I would see it as completely normal if Tywin appointed himself or Cersei as new ruler and everybody would keep their mouths shut. But without him, Lannisters are just another house. Still strong and rich, but not that special compared to Tyrells, Arryns or Martells. Lannisters inheriting the throne, or even pressing their claims for said throne (Which probably has something to do with "Lannisters" sitting there? At least I guess), is just weird.

What are you even talking about? extremely reduced? with Daven married to Frey, with Frey sitting in Riverrun, and the last Tully married to Frey and securely kept in Lannisport (or was it Casterly), with Boltons married to Frey and hold the North?
So they control the Rock, the Trident, the Crownlands, and partially the North.
Is it your definition of extremely reduced? okay.
Mind you, in the beginning of CoK, Tywin controlled only the Rock and the crownlands, and Stannis and Renly pressed their claims exactly because they believed that the ruling dynasty is impostors.
Lannisters are still special in the books, after Tywin is gone, like it or not; if Cercei proclaim herself the Queen, Daven would support her for sure (because why not), and who would be against it, Tyrells? with their son in the Kingsguard? and with their daughter is captive of High Septon? pff, gimme a break… extremely reduced…
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Re: Joffrey/Tommen becoming Baratheons after winning wars

PostPosted by DorlasAnther » Mon Sep 11, 2017 21:11

imp wrote:
DorlasAnther wrote:Which is also weird, because (storywise) once Tywin is gone, Lannister power is extremely reduced. If all three children died, I would see it as completely normal if Tywin appointed himself or Cersei as new ruler and everybody would keep their mouths shut. But without him, Lannisters are just another house. Still strong and rich, but not that special compared to Tyrells, Arryns or Martells. Lannisters inheriting the throne, or even pressing their claims for said throne (Which probably has something to do with "Lannisters" sitting there? At least I guess), is just weird.

What are you even talking about? extremely reduced? with Daven married to Frey, with Frey sitting in Riverrun, and the last Tully married to Frey and securely kept in Lannisport (or was it Casterly), with Boltons married to Frey and hold the North?
So they control the Rock, the Trident, the Crownlands, and partially the North.
Is it your definition of extremely reduced? okay.
Mind you, in the beginning of CoK, Tywin controlled only the Rock and the crownlands, and Stannis and Renly pressed their claims exactly because they believed that the ruling dynasty is impostors.
Lannisters are still special in the books, after Tywin is gone, like it or not; if Cercei proclaim herself the Queen, Daven would support her for sure (because why not), and who would be against it, Tyrells? with their son in the Kingsguard? and with their daughter is captive of High Septon? pff, gimme a break… extremely reduced…


When Robb came to war, House Frey fielded 4000 men. I doubt they have those numbers now. Nobody in Riverlands (or anywhere else) likes them because of what they did to Starks, so I have no idea how you came to conclusion that they controll Riverlands. They don´t even do it nominally, as House Baelish rules that area. Not to mention that Riverlands are completely ravaged and right now are probably the least important of the kingdoms.
Boltons also do not hold North firmly and even if they did, they are simply too far from King´s Landing to provide help quickly.
And who knows how Crownlander lords would react? Some of them supported Stannis and others are not loyal to Lannisters, they are loyal to the Crown.
About Loras being on Kingsguard: Renly was also in capital when Robert was dying. He simply left the city and there we go, no hostage. And there were cases where Kingsguard supported different claimants or simply left the city (Jaime). And Margaery is not captive of High Septon, she is in custody of Randyll Tarly...Tyrell vassal.

The reason why nobody dared to oppose Tywin was because of his reputation. Even Tyrion himself says that without him, Lannisters are extremely weakened. He was extremely capable and ruthless ruler. If he pronounced himself king after death of his grandchildren, nobody would stand against him. Sure, nobody would be happy about it, but they would fall in line.
But if Cersei or some other Lannister attempted to seize the Iron Throne, they would have neither legal claim or enough respect to do such thing. Some lords would most likely rally behind lawful heir (which should be one of Estermonts if I am correct) or try to press their own claim (Martells, for example, are also descendants of Targaryens).

George´s world is much more complex than world of the show, where Cersei crowns herself queen and nobody really cares, with huge war erupting between her and Daenerys. But if something like that happened in the books, we might see dozens of lords from Crownlands and Riverlands (a.k.a. loyal "kingdoms", according to you) just saying "Nope" and staying in their castles or rallying behind some pretender. Lannisters have no legal claim to the throne and with no strong figure, their armies are nothing special. Everyone has armies, some even more powerful than Lannisters (to name specifically, Arryns and Tyrells).
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Re: Joffrey/Tommen becoming Baratheons after winning wars

PostPosted by imp » Tue Sep 12, 2017 02:58

Why anyone who just ‘yesterday’ bent their knees would say ‘nope’ to mother’s legit claim? parent is always a legit heir of their child, even now-days if man has no child, no spouse, then the first in inheritance of property would be parent(s) if any.
Speaking of Freys, I mean how the key lords are bond by marriage ties (if Cersei became the actual Queen bringing Lannisters dynasty onto the throne for real, then they would be just happy, given they are not fools, and they are not). And most (if not all) lesser lords of those lands are sworn to Joffrey, then Tommen, that is it, refusal of Cersei claim would make them traitors, means a new war immediately after one just finished, are they fools? I do not think so.
Loras is about to die, so he would leave only if become a wight or something, but you know father’s heart is always hoping.
Speaking of Margery, yes I was wrong; but still I really do not see why Tyrells would be so opposed against Cersei’s claim. Perhaps they would finally figure out that Tywin’s idea to marry Cersei and Willas is actually a good one.

Oh, and Baelish (I forgot about him) was granted with title by whom? Cersei. And where is Baelish? in the Vale. And what he actually want? Sansa. And so why do you think he would be against Cersei?

Nah, man, Tywin’s death is definitely a great tragedy for all his kids and close kins (even for Tyrion, I’d argue), but the house is as strong currently in the books as never was.
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Re: Joffrey/Tommen becoming Baratheons after winning wars

PostPosted by DorlasAnther » Tue Sep 12, 2017 13:41

Yeah, I think you do not know how inheritance in this kind of setting works. You do not limit possible heirs to parents and children, but you can possibly go back even hundred years to find a new heir. There is reason why Robert wanted to remove all Targaryens: Without them, he was the rightful king.
With Baratheons gone, Cersei is not rightful heir. If they wanted to find rightful heir, they would go decades into the past and find whoever was the next closest relative of Targaryens or Baratheons.
And even if they would not go with that idea (which often happened throughout history), they would just choose their own king. In this case, literally anyone with enough support could become a king, even Mace Tyrell.

Now, obviously, Lannisters would try to put someone from their dynasty on the throne, most likely Cersei. But you are extremely overestimating support they would get and also work with assumption that there are only two options for lords of Westeros: offer armies to Cersei/rebel. Well, there is third: do nothing. The same thing Paxter Redwyne did when his sons were hostage, the same thing Lannisters and Greyjoys did during Robert´s Rebellion and the same thing Tyrells did during Dance of Dragons.
So, minor lords from Crownlands (excluding those close to KL, who would most likely be afraid to not obey) could simply stay in their castles and they would most likely do so in case of war. Maybe they would do the same thing as Lannisters did (choosing side once victor is known), but it is foolish to assume they would all just rush to King´s Landing to help Cersei once she crowns herself. After all, how many of those lords provided their armies to Joffrey during the war? I don´t think anyone actually did anything.
Your arguments about Riverlands are basically the same as your arguments about Crownlands. With the exception of Freys, there is no house actually loyal to the Lannisters. Sure, they swore fealty and hostages would prevent them from siding with their enemies, but they could just remain neutral. And even if they didn´t, after what Tywin did with Riverlands, most of them have barely enough men to defend their castles. You could have support from all lords of Riverlands and their whole army and yet it would be dwarfed by army of any other kingdom. Their support or lack of support means nothing.
And that part about Littlefinger made me stare at the screen. Are you serious? Littlefinger being loyal to Cersei for being granted Harrenhal (which was not her doing, by the way)? That guy works only for himself and if Baratheons were all gone, he might actually be one of the claimants, persuading lords of the Vale to stand behind him and declare war on Lannisters.

As I said before, Tyrion himself said that the best time to attack Seven Kingdoms is after Tywin´s death. Cersei is absolutely terrible ruler and is loved/feared by nobody. That´s why Aegon chose to cross the Narrow Sea. Because with Tywin gone, many lords are far more willing to go against the Crown than before his death.
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Re: Joffrey/Tommen becoming Baratheons after winning wars

PostPosted by Otama » Tue Sep 12, 2017 15:07

I don't want to get off topic with this, but yeah... there's no way Cersei will sit on the throne in the books. The show rushed everything in an attempt to kill off as many characters as possible. Lannisters have no claim to the throne, another reason why making Joff/Tommen/Myrcella fake Baratheons makes the most sense. That said there SHOULD be an option for them going Lannister, if say, they're kicked out of the Iron Throne but end up inheriting Casterly Rock. They can then take up the Lannister name.

If Cersei pulled off what she did in the books, she'd be abandoned by the few followers that she has. Kevan's already dead by Varys but if she did blow him up, there's no way to get the Lannisters on-side afterwards. Unlike in the show, kinslaying still actually matters a lot in the books. There's plenty who would see her as having murdered Tommen as well. At best, she'd have King's Landing and Blackwater Bay.

I doubt Littlefinger would go for the throne though, it's not his goal in the books. More likely he'd try to push for someone like Robert Arryn or a Baratheon bastard like Mya Stone (she is in his area of influence after all) and be the man behind the throne like Tywin was.
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Re: Joffrey/Tommen becoming Baratheons after winning wars

PostPosted by imp » Tue Sep 12, 2017 17:39

So you say that after death of Joffrey, Tommen, and Mircella; Cercei would not have a claim? being parent? and you say it is I who do not know how inheritance works? And do you expect me to speak to you seriously? Really?
And who are they who want to find ‘rightful’ heir? Kevan? Daven? they have the niece right here, the mother of previous kings and queen, plus one of the biggest army, semi-ally with Tyrells (another big army), and smart enough to force a regency council to ‘help’ the widowed queen to rule.

Mace were claiming the IT would be bold; however his claim is weaker than Cersei’s one, lead to potential and pointless war, why if there is a possibility for diplomatic approach.

And why anyone would need to rush to KL? it is beyond me; if there is no opposition among previously loyal lord then there won’t be another war so no need to rush anywhere; all I say is that there is no reason for them to oppose in this case, they just bent knees recently to her children, now to her send message to confirm the oath, and keep sitting being ‘neutral’.
And their support (or ‘support’) means legitimacy in the way, Kevan could say to Mace ‘do you want to sit on IT yourself? fight against combined forces of west, riverlands, and north, meanwhile dealing with Stannis supporters in stromlands and ironborns who are ravaging the Reach as we speak now, aren’t they? or do you want to play it as a wise man, agree to your son marring the true queen and focus on fighting our common enemies together?’

About Littlefinger, I am serious that I do not know what he would do. I mean the fact Cersei was Queen Regent is a good reason to go with supporting her, like ‘of of course I am your loyal vassal, it was you who made me Lord Paramount... by the way, it happens that I found Sansa Stark, poor child, we were friend with her mother, and now she is completely alone, I feel oblige to marry her, would you mind? oh and almost forgot to mention: my mission in the Vale were successful, lords trust me’ or something like that, don’t you think? I dunno, seems legit to me, though it is just one of possibilities; besides even Petyr needs ally just like anyone else, he was useful for Lannisters and they were thankful enough, why forfeit it if it still can be profitable for both sides.
And Littlefinger on IT is absolutely ridiculous, it is like Clegane or Bronn on IT— possible? maybe. When? never.

Speaking of Aegon, this is completely different thing. Aren’t we talking about current situation in the books and potential death of Cersei’s children? of course arrival of Targaryens would affect situation (hard to even imagine, too much possibilities). But neither of them are arrived yet, besides many still remember Robert’s rebellion and its reason, so I doubt there would be too many for Targs; however, dragons would be convincing for sure.
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Re: Joffrey/Tommen becoming Baratheons after winning wars

PostPosted by Otama » Tue Sep 12, 2017 17:46

The Dowager Queen has no claim to the throne at all. The claim comes from Baratheon and Targaryen blood, Cersei has neither. Inviting Stannis to rule is more likely than Cersei sitting on the throne.
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Re: Joffrey/Tommen becoming Baratheons after winning wars

PostPosted by DorlasAnther » Wed Sep 13, 2017 07:28

You know, it is funny how you act all high and mighty, saying how you can´t take me seriously, while also utterly failing to realize how inheritance works. Yes, in current times, if (for example) my father dies and then me and my brother die, our mother would inherit everything. Not my father´s sister, but my mother. Why wouldn´t she? But we are not talking about 21st century and we are not talking about inheritance of property. We are talking about "Middleages" and inheritance of titles.

As Otama said, mother of a king/queen has no claim to the Iron Throne. She just doesn´t, that´s the fact. Sure, Cersei could claim it, but so could Bronn, Littlefinger or Hot Pie. They all have the same legal claim. Actually, their claim is even bigger, because they are men. Iron Throne has pretty harsh version of Agnatic-Cognatic inheritance, where women can inherit only if there are literally no men available. So, Cersei being crowned queen by Lannisters except some male Lannister does not really make sense in the books.

If you combine forces of Westerlands, Riverlands and the North, you still have fewer men than Reach alone. There is reason why Tywin and Kevan both wanted to keep Tyrells as friends. And any pretenders would not even have to face that number. North is far away, winter has come, nobody believes Boltons to come down south and fight in war. Everyone knows lords of Riverlands are loyal only in name and absolutely broken, with no armies. Hell, there are some who have no peasants left, so how could they possibly field an army?
Once again, you assume how Lannisters have unquestionable loyalty of half of Westeros, when in reality, Lannisters only have loyalty of lords in Westerlands. Freys and Boltons both could quickly change sides, just as they did with Robb Stark.
Your assumption how any Lannister could just come to Lord Paramount of Reach and say how powerful Lannisters are, with Tyrells just being "Okay" and accepting the fact that Lannister woman who dislikes them is put on the throne is ridiculous. Ironically, if Tywin was alive, they might accept it, because Tywin is known to get shit done and also would probably give them something in return for their support (which was, by the way, the starting point of this debate: Lannisters are screwed without Tywin).

And the part about Littlefinger just shows your lack of knowledge of the books. Cersei believes Sansa killed Joffrey, together with Tyrion. If he came to her and said: "I want to marry poor Sansa.", she would order him to bring her to her, so she could execute her.
This is only confirmed if I continue reading your comment. Targaryens haven´t come to Westeros and have no support? Have you actually read A Dance with Dragons? He is already in Westeros and Martells are willing to support Targaryens. And who knows how many former Targaryen supporters would rally behind Aegon (especially if Cersei was put on the throne).

The more I read your comments, the more it seems you are the case of Dunning-Kruger effect (in the case of knowing lore of the books). You know extremely little (whether by being just casual fan or forgetting half of the stuff from the books...or both), but because of that, you are unable to objectively see how little you actually know and therefore believe you know a lot. Over the course of this discussion, you have said things that are both false in terms of story (neither of Targaryens arriving to Westeros, not knowing that Cersei believes Sansa killed Joffrey, speaking of Kevan as if he was still alive and so on) and lore (the way you think inheritance of the throne works) and then bellittled for saying things opposite to your beliefs.
Now you have two people disagreeing with you (ironically on the topic you see as the most obvious truth: Cersei having a claim), so I am wondering whether or not you will continue on your course and keep saying the same things, or maybe look into the topic more before repeating yourself and saying how "Mother of the king has the biggest claim to the throne and nobody would oppose her.".
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Re: Joffrey/Tommen becoming Baratheons after winning wars

PostPosted by Toccs » Wed Sep 13, 2017 07:55

If this debate is going to continue make sure it's kept respectful.

D&D know a broad strokes version of the ending generally and of the next book in particular. In his chapter from tWoW, Damphair has a Shade of the Evening induced vision of Euron and a "shadow in the shape of a woman" laughing and drinking together over Westeros' corpse. In his original outline for the series, GRRM had Jaimie Lannister (sans redemption arc) ending up on the Throne.

It doesn't matter if she has a proper legal claim, it matters even less what real life middle ages inheritance was like. Cersei is going to end up sitting on the Iron Throne. To believe otherwise is to fly in the face of all evidence.
Smart and dumb are two sides of the same coin. Every time a new Stark is born the gods flip a coin . . . and it always seems to land on dumb.
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Re: Joffrey/Tommen becoming Baratheons after winning wars

PostPosted by imp » Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:04

DorlasAnther wrote:You know, it is funny how you act all high and mighty, saying how you can´t take me seriously, while also utterly failing to realize how inheritance works. Yes, in current times, if (for example) my father dies and then me and my brother die, our mother would inherit everything. Not my father´s sister, but my mother. Why wouldn´t she? But we are not talking about 21st century and we are not talking about inheritance of property. We are talking about "Middleages" and inheritance of titles.

No, we are talking about Westeros, please, make yourself a favour and read carefully http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Cu ... nheritance

DorlasAnther wrote:nobody believes Boltons to come down south and fight in war.

They are already about to fight Stannis; if Lannisters lose their status, Boltons can just swear to Stannis in exchange of couple of chopped off fingers.

DorlasAnther wrote:Everyone knows lords of Riverlands are loyal only in name and absolutely broken, with no armies. Hell, there are some who have no peasants left, so how could they possibly field an army?

There are for sure some forces, several lords were surrender and bent knee to crown refusing to continue pointless hostility, means they still have some troops; see Jaime’s chapters.

DorlasAnther wrote:Once again, you assume how Lannisters have unquestionable loyalty of half of Westeros

My assumption is based on logic and pragmatism.

DorlasAnther wrote:Your assumption how any Lannister could just come to Lord Paramount of Reach and say how powerful Lannisters are, with Tyrells just being "Okay" and accepting the fact that Lannister woman who dislikes them is put on the throne is ridiculous.

If they refused they will be surrounded by enemies, it is certainlly possible, but utterly silly.

DorlasAnther wrote:And the part about Littlefinger just shows your lack of knowledge of the books. Cersei believes Sansa killed Joffrey, together with Tyrion. If he came to her and said: "I want to marry poor Sansa.", she would order him to bring her to her, so she could execute her.

Just shows you think a title gives a real power; I mentioned a regency council they would not even care what Cercei think just rule in her name.
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Re: Joffrey/Tommen becoming Baratheons after winning wars

PostPosted by DorlasAnther » Wed Sep 13, 2017 14:42

Toccs wrote:If this debate is going to continue make sure it's kept respectful.

D&D know a broad strokes version of the ending generally and of the next book in particular. In his chapter from tWoW, Damphair has a Shade of the Evening induced vision of Euron and a "shadow in the shape of a woman" laughing and drinking together over Westeros' corpse. In his original outline for the series, GRRM had Jaimie Lannister (sans redemption arc) ending up on the Throne.

It doesn't matter if she has a proper legal claim, it matters even less what real life middle ages inheritance was like. Cersei is going to end up sitting on the Iron Throne. To believe otherwise is to fly in the face of all evidence.


I am not saying Cersei will not proclaim herself a queen, I am just saying that there are many who could dispute her claim (as there is none) and that her position would be much different from what we see in the show (where everyone automatically accepts she is a queen, including former Tyrell vassals, even though she killed their lord). She will obviously do similar thing as she did in the show (blowing up Sept of Baelor) and her children will most likely die (although I am still unconvinced about Myrcella, maybe Cersei will end up bringing her back and crowning her as queen, standing behind her back as real ruler...prophecies in the books cannot be seen as 100% reliable).

And imp, I won´t be quoting everything sentence by sentence (because I have no idea how to do that), so here is my response to your previous comment:
There is reason why I said "Middleage" instead of Middleages. Westeros is obviously different from real world, but it is based on it. And mother of the king does not have claim for the crown in real world, nor was something like that ever mentioned in the books. The page you linked even confirms what I said about "all men coming before women" in terms of Iron Throne inheritance. I have absolutely no idea why you linked awoiaf, when it says nothing about mothers having claims and even supports what I said before. Unless, of course, it was response in style of "Hahahaha, you mentioned Middleages. Well, this is not Europe, this is Westeros, here, have a wikipedia page and read, peasant."

Yes, Boltons are fighting Stannis. But I was not talking about Stannis, but about potential southern claimant, who is hundreds of miles away from them.
And Riverlords have some army...small army, barely few thousand. When Brackens besieged Raventree Hall, they had about 500 men, IIRC. And lord Blackwood did not have enough men to repell such a small army. And from what we read, Brackens and Blackwoods are one of the more powerful houses. Riverlands are ravaged and just like North, are able to provide fewer men than Dorne, the least populous of the kingdoms.

You are not being pragmatic or logical at all. I mentioned multiple examples of where you got story wrong (Aegon being in Westeros, Kevan being dead and so on), yet you do not mention it at all. You assume how everyone will gladly throw themselves at the feet of Cersei once she proclaims herself as a queen, because in your mind, apparently, Tyrells and everyone else will assume Lannisters have every house in North, Riverlands and Crownlands on their side and therefore, resistance is futile and therefore they will accept. There is no logic behind that. If some minor lord in Crownlands hears about Cersei being crowned and Aegon marching from Storm´s End to King´s Landing, and getting letter to go to capital and defend it, do you think he will gather troops and march there? Or will he rather wait and see if she defeats this Targaryen and then choose who to support?
There are two things that make lords provide troops for their lord: fear and loyalty. Nobody besides Lannister bannermen has real loyalty towards Cersei and without Tywin or Kevan (and Jaime possibly opposing his sister), there is no fear.
You are saying how anyone who would not come with his army to KL would be surrounded by enemies, but tell me, was Paxter Redwyne surrounded by enemies when he refused to obey Mace, because he was afraid of losing his sons? No. Because both Mace and Renly were focused on going to KL. It is the same with Cersei. If she was threathened by Aegon or Daenerys or whoever would oppose her with an army, she would not march her troops to Shitholey Shithole in Crapforest in the north of Crownlands, where some lord refused to come with 500 men, but rather stayed in his castle. She would focus on the claimant. And lord of Shithole could wait and see who would win and then come and swear loyalty, acting as if he was marching to help.
That´s what I am talking about. Almost nobody has loyalty or fear to obey Cersei. But you assume that everyone will just automatically support her, because if they would not, she would march her entire army to their castle.

Yes, you mentioned regency council...of Daven Lannister, military man who is in Westerlands and Kevan Lannister, a corpse. If Cersei proclaimed herself as a queen (nobody would do that for her, as a mother, according to laws of Westeros (See? No mention of Middleages. Happy?), she has no claim, so why should they make her queen instead of one of their own), she would not allow anyone to rule in her name.
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Re: Joffrey/Tommen becoming Baratheons after winning wars

PostPosted by imp » Wed Sep 13, 2017 15:31

You did not read the wiki carefully:

1. «the laws of inheritance in the Seven Kingdoms ... were vague, uncodified, subject to varying interpretations, and often contradictory»

2. «When a ruling lord dies and leaves no clear heir, his widow might lay claim upon his lands and rule until her own death (e.g., Lady Donella Hornwood and Lady Barbrey Dustin), and in such a case, might name an heir by herself.[36]»

I assume that many who swear fealty to Joffrey or Tommen would prefer to confirm their oath to Cersei (be she proclaimed queen) and perhaps just sitting at home or maybe even send some troops, than run to Aegon (wait a second was he not smashed to death in infancy?—just to be clear I am mocking your laugh at my mentions of Kevan).
If lesser lords won’t confirm loyalty then it will put in risk hostages taken by Lannisters.
Also speaking of A Dance with Dragons (which I obv did not read couple years ago), big portion of Mace’s army is currently at KL, ready to defend it.

Mace, refusing Lannister ally, will be surrounded by Lannisters from the west, Stannis supporters or Aegon supporters from the east, Ironborns at his rear i.e. south, and potential threat from north i.e. Stannis.

Regency council could consist of Daven, Jaime, Mace, Olenna, even Qyburn (who is a maester and can say that Cersei is ill or whatever)—this is such insignificant detail that it is surprising you are even bother to discuss it.
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