The Citadel

Hroppa wrote:That's a nice basis for a dynamic Mountain clan system. Perhaps we could go the whole way and create an even to spread them to other mountainous provinces, and an event to eradicate them.

What specific new provinces are you going to add? I think the neatest way to tie things up would actually be to:
- move Darkmoor southeast, so it blocks the way to the Bloody Gate (it will be added to the Giant's Lance duchy)
- move Moonsgrey (the only non-coastal province in The Bite duchy) south of the mountains, so the river's its southern border
- consolidate the non-Darkmoor provinces in the Strongsong duchy within the mountains (I'll add Moonsgrey to this duchy)
- consolidate The Bite duchy into three provinces on the north side of the mountains

Oh, ok; when you talked about putting a clansmen province blocking the Bloody Gate I assumed you meant a new province.

Uploaded a bunch of files to the dropbox.

There are a few minor errors I've been fixing, so there must be a few more, but I've found one major problem on loading up a 8282 start date:

Jon Arryn, his father Jasper and his son Robert (the first 3 characters in the Vale file) are the only characters the game loads. The duchies etc are wonky too, but I presume that this is because the game isn't loading the characters who are meant to hold them.

I've scanned the file, presuming that there's an unclosed bracket or something after the 3rd character... but no luck there. A fresh pair of eyes would be appreciated!

Hroppa, are the files you uploaded still a work in progress? Because I found some weird things in them and I don't know if I screwed up somewhere when merging or if you are still going to make further changes. For example, there are only two Dukes, some counties don't belong to the right owners according to the Doc (for instance, The Bloody Gate) and some other counties don't have an owner defined.

Also, a suggestion: Could it be a good idea to give The Eyrie a couple towns and a sept instead of so many castles? The Arryns will probably be unbalanced with all these (they will either have too many troops or too little money...).

I think its rather fitting for the Eyrie itself to have all the named castles from the book, maybe we can just compensate with a -% modifier on manpower and taxes? to represent how small they actually are - garrison stations.

On a similar note, the situation seems dire for the high septon. There are currently just 3 septs on the map.
2 in Oldtown and 1 in Higharden.
...adding the single temple in Winterfell this brings the total number of bishoprics to 4.
I think for the sake of balance we need to invent some more... :/

Ogaburan wrote:I think its rather fitting for the Eyrie itself to have all the named castles from the book, maybe we can just compensate with a -% modifier on manpower and taxes? to represent how small they actually are - garrison stations.

On a similar note, the situation seems dire for the high septon. There are currently just 3 septs on the map.
2 in Oldtown and 1 in Higharden.
...adding the single temple in Winterfell this brings the total number of bishoprics to 4.
I think for the sake of balance we need to invent some more... :/

I agree there should be more, but not many more. At the moment, I think we have an overabundance of castles and a lack of towns and septs in general.

Yeah, these are still work in progress. I uploaded them when I ran into that problem. Didn't get a chance to do any testing or revisions. Won't have much time to do so until next weekend.

Most of the castles are there for canon reasons, but septs should definitely be added. In my opinion, for example, the Eyrie really should be mostly castles. A solution might be to add more towns to other provinces the Arryns hold.

Duchies are... a problem (as I posted before). I'm not entirely happy with the current set up, but it was the best I could come up with at the time. The few liege-vassal situations that are listed in canon make no sense as a de jure set up. The current set up involves most duchies being uncreated, but with canon vassal relations included. It will have to be revised for balance.

Made a few fixes (the funniest being that 'Rowena' Hardyng was a man... married to both Jon Arryn and his son Robert).

Not altering the ownership of bloody gate; I think it should be in Arryn hands, unless someone can point me to a source that says otherwise. Best argument would be for making it the Blackfish's, but we might want to make the Knight of the Gate an honorary title anyway, and I can't make him the owner until the Riverlands characters are done. Also, I don't see a problem with leaving some counties ownerless; I don't think we should necessarily assume GRRM has named all the lords of the vale. The game does a fine job of randomly generating them.

No changes to the duchies either; some thinking to be done there. It's not out of the question just to leave it in the current setup for now, closely based on canon, with almost every count a vassal of the Arryns. Duchies can be distributed on grounds of balance, if we find wacky shenanigans going on.

No sept or town additions yet. Still thinking over this one. Septs need to be added, for sure... but I'd say that there are about equal numbers of cities and castles in the vale at present, maybe only slightly in favour of the latter. The distribution would be skewed in favour of cities, except for a) the Eyrie (Stone, Sky, Snow, the Gates of the Moon and the Eyrie itself should all surely be castles) and b) the Fingers (because there are lots of one holding provinces; they have to be castles to have feudal lords).

Hroppa wrote:Made a few fixes (the funniest being that 'Rowena' Hardyng was a man... married to both Jon Arryn and his son Robert).

Not altering the ownership of bloody gate; I think it should be in Arryn hands, unless someone can point me to a source that says otherwise. Best argument would be for making it the Blackfish's, but we might want to make the Knight of the Gate an honorary title anyway, and I can't make him the owner until the Riverlands characters are done. Also, I don't see a problem with leaving some counties ownerless; I don't think we should necessarily assume GRRM has named all the lords of the vale. The game does a fine job of randomly generating them.

No changes to the duchies either; some thinking to be done there. It's not out of the question just to leave it in the current setup for now, closely based on canon, with almost every count a vassal of the Arryns. Duchies can be distributed on grounds of balance, if we find wacky shenanigans going on.

No sept or town additions yet. Still thinking over this one. Septs need to be added, for sure... but I'd say that there are about equal numbers of cities and castles in the vale at present, maybe only slightly in favour of the latter. The distribution would be skewed in favour of cities, except for a) the Eyrie (Stone, Sky, Snow, the Gates of the Moon and the Eyrie itself should all surely be castles) and b) the Fingers (because there are lots of one holding provinces; they have to be castles to have feudal lords).

Ok, it's your call, at least until the time for balancing everything comes. But one thing I definitely don't agree with is the part about leaving counties ownerless. It would be fine if we couldn't find any canon or semi-canon houses to give it to (and in that case I'd still rather give it to its de jure Duke as a demesne county), but we have plenty. Why would it be better to have the "of Sunset Keep" family as the counts of Sunset Keep instead of the "Donniger" family (who are a canon Vale house, even if we don't know their canon possessions)? If we do this, we are wasting perfectly good canon families. In fact, even these houses that probably were made up by Grell (like the Wyndman) sound better to me than the "of Scarle Keep"'s...

Yeah, I say we give them names of some sort, even if we end up naming it "House Hroppa" for some little county.

That's a fair point.

Hroppa, I implemented your suggestions. Does this look better?



Here's the current distribution of de jure duchies. Some tweaking might now be in order...



My suggestions:

- Create a new duchy with Ninestars, Crab's Shore and Wickenden (Duchy of Wickenden and the Waxleys as dukes, perhaps?).
- Give Redfort to Gulltown.
- Give Darkmoor to the Giant's Lance.
- Give Moonsgrey to Strongsong (as you said).

EDIT: Now that I see it again, I will also enlarge Crow's Barrens so it borders Greywater Watch and denies the Freys access to the Bite.

That looks amazing! I love how the central Vale really does look like a sheltered valley now

Duchies fixed, as you suggest, except for making the Waxleys Dukes. There isn't really a great case for making someone a duke in that area at the start; the named characters (Waxleys, Templetons) are knights.

Added some new characters as lords for some regions. The google doc is now correct with regards to ownership (I think). Stopped short of adding any new dynasties, and there are now no Moon clansman lords (in accordance with our current plans to represent them with modifiers and mercs). So there are still a few provinces without any lords set.

Ticked a couple of cross-regional marriages off the list.

didn't sunspear do it?

knuckey wrote:i dont think so, there are no vale files in his folder or the balancing test folder. Unless he is in the middle of working on them...

As far as I know nobody is working on it, so if you want to do it feel free. I can help if you want.

Knuckey did you start yet? If not I could do them too. Since I did 3 other regions I'm pretty fast with that.