The Citadel

This seems like a pretty heated thread. Hopefully I can add something to the discussion.

I think it's a little bit odd that people give so much weight to GRRM's opinion given that he has done so much to limit his own control over the story. The only glimpses we get of Westeros are given to us through the flawed and often mistaken perspectives of the story's characters. There is no omniscient narrator telling the audience what is or isn't true, we have to sort that out for ourselves.

In fact, one of the things I love about these stories is that they reward active participation in the story by the audience. As such, I think it's somewhat silly to make an argument that one person's interpretation of how things look is objectively better than someone else, even if that person is the author. Yes GRRM is writing the story, but that does not make his opinions outside of the story anymore privileged than you or I. Look at these two artist interpretations of Tywin Lannister:
http://en.amokanet.ru/netcat_files/158/163/h_8c7efa5a90f2e8b50304c10b006f910d and http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2011/027/b/e/be81a58dea5b34bd3e2ddcaec60b2105-d386mba.jpg.
I like one more than the other, but I wouldn't say that one is "right" and the other "wrong."

Personally, I think it should be left up to the artists to decide how they'd like to design any particular piece. These artists have volunteered to help this project , and so it behooves us to assume goodwill on their part. I'm sure they will ask for suggestions, and we can can give them our opinions, but I think it's silly and arbitrary to give them restrictions like "You can't use the HBO show for inspiration."

Anyways, that's my 2 cents on the matter.

JonSnoooow wrote:The books > GRRM's own correspondence with fans and artists representing his true visual feelings > The show which in many cases contradicts his previous uninhibited views.

The show is third in my personal opinion. The huge catalog of replies to fans about the series are all nicely databased on westeros.org and should be drawn on as the second source... Its the fact that the show clearly contradicts a lot of the visual descriptions GRRM has, that makes it less valuable then the other two sources. By all means if the show has something in it that would work (My example being the Maesters chain) then you guys should take inspiration from that without question, since its not described in detail in any other sources as yet, that and I found it a pretty nice solution.

We just don't want it looking like the hbo show for popularities sake. We've then lost the reason most of you guys chose to be here. Choose someone who can be a visual editor to approve all files. We need to come off it on the "visual designers should choose their own way" every team needs direction and leadership within it... whether working (for freeee!) or paid. We don't want an incoherent end product because we are afraid of hurting the feelings of people who contribute. Everyone should be open for the discussion and everyone should be open to critique, its one of the most important things when your involved in a creative industry/area. Id go as far to say that not being open to critique on subjects is one of the main reasons most mods fail to impress... and some games too.

I do have fears here that if we namby pamby around things with regards to people's contributions being accepted without question, then we'll end up with a mod well short of the polish and coherence we all desire...

Well said.

Galle wrote:It's fundamentally misguided because it assumes that we can have "an adaptation of the books" or "an adaptation of the show," an extreme all-or-nothing approach. Hell, the very title of this thread makes no sense at all, simply because it starts with that assumption. The way I see it, what we're making is a Crusader Kings II mod set in Westeros. We have a number of sources on Westeros. The books are the most important, being the original source. The show is the second most important, being the most popular. They aren't depicting two distinct worlds that just happen to be incredibly similar, they are depicting the same world, but with slight variations. It should not be seriously difficult to meld the two together. And if you think visual design is an obstacle to melding the two together, I can only assume you've somehow forgotten that the books don't have any. Being, you know, books.

I named this thread to reflect both sides of the argument, which makes sense. I would much rather have an extreme all-or-nothing approach when it comes to using HBO content. When I think about Westeros I separate the books from the series, which is perfectly reasonable and logical to do. I do like the HBO series, I much prefer the books. I am a reader, a member of the audience and a fan and I have the freedom of choice to separate the two. As an artist I can do the same. I can ignore the HBO rendition, even if it has the stamp of approval. Of course anyone else can do the same, they can ignore any rendition they wish and rely solely on the books as the main reference.

To summarise I think the visual design in the HBO series stinks - (There are some fairly decent looking outfits but that is only because they fit in with the factions culture and borrow from historical designs). I am not suggesting that everyone refrain from taking inspiration from the series, I was just adamant that we not use content (which is very distinct and unique to say the least).





As you can see, these impractical and/or 'too-exotic-for-westeros' designs stick out like a sore thumb. Nestled amongst helmets that look robust, practical and somewhat historical, they would stick out. They would be instantly recognisable, which would spoil it for a lot of folks and fans who really don't dig the HBO look.

Now all of this is very subjective I know, but that is what the argument boils down to - a disagreement between two camps over the direction and handling of the mods visual design.

Again, I'm not making any demands - just urging others to heed my opinion. I certainly don't want to quash or restrict artistic freedom (if anything I'm trying to encourage it from stepping away from the HBO look). I'm just very interested in helping to strive towards a good looking mod with it's own visual look. Let's take a look at actual Games that have been made based upon the books. Genesis (terrible game I know) - what about their art department? What did they do? I can't see anything that resembles the HBO series. How about the Game of Thrones RPG that is coming out soon? That has it's own visual style, its own aesthetic. It looks pretty good from what I've seen. Nothing there looks like it's from HBO. Oh apart from the Iron Throne, but that actually looks good and isn't a costume. I bet the art teams enjoyed realising their own vision, their own rendition of the books. I just feel that even if something from HBO were included, it would sort of spoil everything else. You might think that's petty, I don't mean to be but I think it is important.

Seven Hell's, just as long as nobody uses anything Lannister, Stark, Kingsguard, Gold cloak, or Stannis from the HBO series I might just be content at anything else (but then again anything else is just your standard historical gear!).

I appreciate that ultimately the artist has the last say in what they produce, but it is still important for the team as a majority at least to agree on something that ensures an overall consistent visual design.

This rests in the creative and most capable hands of the artists.

I signed up for this debate, so excuse the low post count. I am currently on my third read-through of the series, and of course watching the HBO as it airs.

The books are actually QUITE detailed and VERY specific about the types of armor, if you know what you are reading. Also you have to remember that the HBO series is stylized for budget, for popularity, for the vision and skill of their Irish studio... So they do things like, create three sets of Lannister armor and then pass those around as the scenes require it. Whereas the flavor of the books was based HEAVILY in REALITY. Your average guardsman would not have had some ornate armor with some useless helm design (which BTW is the half the same design as the Uruk Hai from LOTR!), he would have looked like a very practical soldier. Someone whose armor was mass manufactured in the armor factories of Casterly Rock to fight wars, not to look pretty on American TV.

At the same time, the show is COMPLETLEY UNABLE to show the ornate grandeur of a world that is riding high at the peak of its technological ability, grown absolutely decadent with economic success. Everything in the show is pathetic and cheap compared to what the nobility of Westeros would have had. Why settle for less than what our imagination can make inside our heads?

The HBO series has some REALLY HORRIBLE THINGS, and some kinda not so horrible things, some things that are really weak, and finally some things that are passable as "faithful adaptation." For instance, I don't believe they have once shown Storms End, despite the scenes requiring its siege. Didn't have the time, money, or give-a-shit to do so. The Eyrie, also, looks dumb as hell compared to the very specific description in the first book. Why take from an incomplete source just to satisfy a fanbase? Why do any of you care about the HBO fans at all? Isn't real art making something without compromising it for the masses?

GRRM writes a PRACTICAL medieval world, that also happens to have aspects of the fantastic in it as well. He writes it from his apparently vast knowledge of medieval history, technology and human struggle. He used specifically historical language. There is no budget constraining his vision, and neither is one constraining this mod. Simply by USING his intellectual property, you have opted out of any financial gain. If you decide to pander to HBO fans so that you get more Downloads, that's your team's decision to make.

But just because some bigshot execs showed GRRM a cheque with a bunch of zeroes on it and asked him to give his blessing to their money-hampered art design doesn't mean it actually matches his vision. OF COURSE he said yes, any of us would have. I don't think that should mean the HBO work is part of canon. It's a simplified story, told for a simplified audience. Not the same story at all that draws me deep into its world every night.

In the end, CAN you use SOME of the HBO design? Sure. But you could ALWAYS do better.

I'm a little late to the punch but my immediate reaction is that Edric is letting his own opinion on the show get in the way of some perfectly reasonable points that Galle is making. Which is reminding me a bit of the whole "logo" arguement about not using the same Font as the series simply because the series was using it and you didn't like the idea of people associating the two.

Here's a fact people, a LOT of the individuals when they see this mod are going to associate it with the show anyway. There are, I expect, many more people out there now that have seen the HBO series than read the books, so no matter how much you want to avoid associating with it, the TV series has happened, and by using the same Intellectual Property as a basis for the mod, we are, however indirectly, related to it. Whilst I definitely agree with Edric on the basis of Canonical sources, and Art work based directly from the books descriptions should ALWAYS be the first port of call, but when the TV series does follow descriptions, and we don't have anything else to go by then there's no reason not to use it for inspiration at the very least. And as (I think) Galle said, when we need to plug the gaps of areas not described in the books and the TV series has already done it why should we not use it? At the end of the day, the individuals that did fill the gaps in the HBO rendition are paid professionals who's job it is to look at the canon and decide what fits.

So ignore the things that HBO have done wrong, we're not talking about that, we wouldn't include it anyway so why use it in your arguement. What Galle wants us to consider is using things that HBO have done right when we have no other "official" inspiration, and no agreeing semi-canon sources to use in the first place. If it looks good, it fits in with Canon and there's nothing else to go by, why not. In cases where HBO have fit the bill exactly, the same case is true. As Galle said, the Kingsguard armor matches description (apart from the helmet...), I personally think that what the costume designer has managed to make there is a lot more accurate to the books descriptions that a lot of the other book based art work.

If I bring us back to the case of the "official" font, my personal opinion on it is this: It's a font... It looks good, awesome in fact. People that see it aren't thinking either "TV Series" or "Books", they're thinking "ASOIAF mod for CKII, omgwtfbbq need". It's not disloyal to GRRM and it works graphically, let's not spite ourselves by trying to avoid an association that, quite frankly, is unavoidable. Apply this trail of thought to this subject of other art work, if you please. If it's right (which some of it is), and we have nowhere else to go, then the only reason not to use it is because of a biased personal opinion.

Stiener out!

I'm a little late to the punch but my immediate reaction is that Edric is letting his own opinion on the show get in the way of some perfectly reasonable points that Galle is making. Which is reminding me a bit of the whole "logo" arguement about not using the same Font as the series simply because the series was using it and you didn't like the idea of people associating the two.

Here's a fact people, a LOT of the individuals when they see this mod are going to associate it with the show anyway. There are, I expect, many more people out there now that have seen the HBO series than read the books, so no matter how much you want to avoid associating with it, the TV series has happened, and by using the same Intellectual Property as a basis for the mod, we are, however indirectly, related to it. Whilst I definitely agree with Edric on the basis of Canonical sources, and Art work based directly from the books descriptions should ALWAYS be the first port of call, but when the TV series does follow descriptions, and we don't have anything else to go by then there's no reason not to use it for inspiration at the very least. And as (I think) Galle said, when we need to plug the gaps of areas not described in the books and the TV series has already done it why should we not use it? At the end of the day, the individuals that did fill the gaps in the HBO rendition are paid professionals who's job it is to look at the canon and decide what fits.

So ignore the things that HBO have done wrong, we're not talking about that, we wouldn't include it anyway so why use it in your arguement. What Galle wants us to consider is using things that HBO have done right when we have no other "official" inspiration, and no agreeing semi-canon sources to use in the first place. If it looks good, it fits in with Canon and there's nothing else to go by, why not. In cases where HBO have fit the bill exactly, the same case is true. As Galle said, the Kingsguard armor matches description (apart from the helmet...), I personally think that what the costume designer has managed to make there is a lot more accurate to the books descriptions that a lot of the other book based art work.

If I bring us back to the case of the "official" font, my personal opinion on it is this: It's a font... It looks good, awesome in fact. People that see it aren't thinking either "TV Series" or "Books", they're thinking "ASOIAF mod for CKII, omgwtfbbq need". It's not disloyal to GRRM and it works graphically, let's not spite ourselves by trying to avoid an association that, quite frankly, is unavoidable. Apply this trail of thought to this subject of other art work, if you please. If it's right (which some of it is), and we have nowhere else to go, then the only reason not to use it is because of a biased personal opinion.

Well said!

Plus, everything will always be interpreted by the artists and so it should have a unified feel even if the inspiration comes from different sources. Take a look at the following two pictures:
http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2010/257/1/7/1778e1bcbfa9855eed9ff523f82504d3-d2yr4fs.jpg
and
http://fc00.deviantart.net/fs42/f/2009/125/f/8/f87c84d0d70477e899ff80890992b95d.jpg
The first draws inspiration from Native American culture, while the second draws from Norse culture. However, even though each has very different sources of inspiration, they are both recognizably coherent.

So as long as the artists are good (and I'm sure they are) I don't think we will have to worry about anything "sticking out" or being "'too exotic."

chinaserf1 wrote:I signed up for this debate, so excuse the low post count. I am currently on my third read-through of the series, and of course watching the HBO as it airs.

The books are actually QUITE detailed and VERY specific about the types of armor, if you know what you are reading. Also you have to remember that the HBO series is stylized for budget, for popularity, for the vision and skill of their Irish studio... So they do things like, create three sets of Lannister armor and then pass those around as the scenes require it. Whereas the flavor of the books was based HEAVILY in REALITY. Your average guardsman would not have had some ornate armor with some useless helm design (which BTW is the half the same design as the Uruk Hai from LOTR!), he would have looked like a very practical soldier. Someone whose armor was mass manufactured in the armor factories of Casterly Rock to fight wars, not to look pretty on American TV.

At the same time, the show is COMPLETLEY UNABLE to show the ornate grandeur of a world that is riding high at the peak of its technological ability, grown absolutely decadent with economic success. Everything in the show is pathetic and cheap compared to what the nobility of Westeros would have had. Why settle for less than what our imagination can make inside our heads?

The HBO series has some REALLY HORRIBLE THINGS, and some kinda not so horrible things, some things that are really weak, and finally some things that are passable as "faithful adaptation." For instance, I don't believe they have once shown Storms End, despite the scenes requiring its siege. Didn't have the time, money, or give-a-shit to do so. The Eyrie, also, looks dumb as hell compared to the very specific description in the first book. Why take from an incomplete source just to satisfy a fanbase? Why do any of you care about the HBO fans at all? Isn't real art making something without compromising it for the masses?

GRRM writes a PRACTICAL medieval world, that also happens to have aspects of the fantastic in it as well. He writes it from his apparently vast knowledge of medieval history, technology and human struggle. He used specifically historical language. There is no budget constraining his vision, and neither is one constraining this mod. Simply by USING his intellectual property, you have opted out of any financial gain. If you decide to pander to HBO fans so that you get more Downloads, that's your team's decision to make.

But just because some bigshot execs showed GRRM a cheque with a bunch of zeroes on it and asked him to give his blessing to their money-hampered art design doesn't mean it actually matches his vision. OF COURSE he said yes, any of us would have. I don't think that should mean the HBO work is part of canon. It's a simplified story, told for a simplified audience. Not the same story at all that draws me deep into its world every night.

In the end, CAN you use SOME of the HBO design? Sure. But you could ALWAYS do better.

A man after my own heart.

Stiener wrote:my immediate reaction is that Edric is letting his own opinion on the show get in the way of some perfectly reasonable points that Galle is making. Which is reminding me a bit of the whole "logo" arguement about not using the same Font as the series simply because the series was using it and you didn't like the idea of people associating the two.

Is it a case of me letting my own opinion of the show get in the way of some perfectly reasonable points that Galle is making, or is it Galle letting his own opinion of the show get in the way of some perfectly reasonable points that I am making? Is it a bit of both? Yes, I think it is, after all this is a debate. My word is not law here, I'm just keen to keep debating on this topic. As you have dragged up the Logo topic, yes I think it just immediately associates the HBO show with the mod and it is unimaginative using the same font.

The fact that the books came first and foremost and are the source of the series adaptation, I would assume that most people are going to associate it with the books. Also seeing as the majority of your TV audience aren't going to be Grand Strategy PC gaming types (and ASoIaF online community lurkers on the look out for mods) I think that debunks the myth that the majority of our 'target audience' are going to be howling for HBO content or expecting it or associating a mod with HBO, it'll probably be very mixed. - But as I've said it is in the hands of individual artists.

Stiener wrote:then the only reason not to use it is because of a biased personal opinion.

Yes, that is right. It is all down to personal taste as I have said. We could go on and on with technicalities, but we can't change our tastes. Some people would rather not have anything from the HBO series. Some people would like to use some HBO content. Some people don't care either way. Maybe we can all come to some sort of agreement or compromise if we come across any practical dilemmas. I just don't see any benefit from using HBO content anyway. It's early days, but everything I've seen thus far is looking very good.

Edric Storm wrote:The fact that the books came first and foremost and are the source of the series adaptation, I would assume that most people are going to associate it with the books. Also seeing as the majority of your TV audience aren't going to be Grand Strategy PC gaming types (and ASoIaF online community lurkers on the look out for mods) I think that debunks the myth that the majority of our 'target audience' are going to be howling for HBO content or expecting it or associating a mod with HBO, it'll probably be very mixed. - But as I've said it is in the hands of individual artists.

In my experience, this particular stereotype isn't born out by reality. Plenty of Grand Strategy PC gaming types are more familiar with the show than the books, in many cases because they'd never even heard of the books before the show.

In any case, I agree with Stiener that, regardless of what visual style we use, we are going to be associated with the show. This is not about "the show versus the books," and never can be, because most people don't bother drawing a pointless distinction between the two.

Edric Storm wrote:The fact that the books came first and foremost and are the source of the series adaptation, I would assume that most people are going to associate it with the books. Also seeing as the majority of your TV audience aren't going to be Grand Strategy PC gaming types (and ASoIaF online community lurkers on the look out for mods) I think that debunks the myth that the majority of our 'target audience' are going to be howling for HBO content or expecting it or associating a mod with HBO, it'll probably be very mixed. - But as I've said it is in the hands of individual artists.

+1
Most grand strategy guys do read books, and its hard not to be aware of this one... unless you are fairly young/fantasy is not your thing.

...and just look at this;

Can you say, with a straight face its not ugly?

Ogaburan wrote:

Edric Storm wrote:The fact that the books came first and foremost and are the source of the series adaptation, I would assume that most people are going to associate it with the books. Also seeing as the majority of your TV audience aren't going to be Grand Strategy PC gaming types (and ASoIaF online community lurkers on the look out for mods) I think that debunks the myth that the majority of our 'target audience' are going to be howling for HBO content or expecting it or associating a mod with HBO, it'll probably be very mixed. - But as I've said it is in the hands of individual artists.

+1
Most grand strategy guys do read books, and its hard not to be aware of this one... unless you are fairly young/fantasy is not your thing.

I'm sorry, but this just isn't true.

Ogaburan wrote:...and just look at this;

Can you say, with a straight face its not ugly?

I can say with a straight face that the armor itself, as opposed to the helmet, is not ugly.

Unlike Edric, I am perfectly capable of taking one and leaving the other without my brain exploding.

Galle wrote:I'm sorry, but this just isn't true.

You are right;

Komodo wrote:Hello, I'm Komodo. I just joined but don't let that influence your opinion of me. I'm a little unique I suppose considering I haven't been playing CK II for too long and I have not yet read the books or watched the series for "A Song of Ice and Fire". Consider me a bit of a neutral viewer. I still love both topics however and I'd LOVE to test out this mod. I don't yet have CK Complete, only II so I've been thinking about a Westeros for a while. I'm a fan of Arryn for sure not to mention taking a shot of Greyjoy wouldn't be too bad either. If you need me I'm here. If your full for testers, then I'll just wait for the full release. Good Luck!

Most people haven't heard about neither the books nor the show.

Galle wrote:Unlike Edric, I am perfectly capable of taking one and leaving the other without my brain exploding.

I cant, it is forever tainted by tasteless design.
As for the armor itself... you cant really mess up "black", although it seems they gave it their best efforts.

Not Unlike Edric, I am not capable of separating the general design of a whole set of armor. Designed to be worn armor and helmet, together. Not separately.

It also seems you are taking this too seriously and/or personally...

Could any of you guys be kind enough to post references to the descriptions of armors in the books? I know it's strange for the artist requesting for a reference like this, but I'm a bit busy with other paintings as well and if any of you guys have the time, please post those references for us artists!

Ogaburan wrote:It also seems you are taking this too seriously and/or personally...

I'm not the one so irrationally angry at the show that I thought a minor character's name change was sig-worthy.

dauncosony wrote:Could any of you guys be kind enough to post references to the descriptions of armors in the books? I know it's strange for the artist requesting for a reference like this, but I'm a bit busy with other paintings as well and if any of you guys have the time, please post those references for us artists!

Good idea! I'm casually re-reading the books for ideas so I will post when stuff comes to mind. Perhaps you could create a new thread where people can post such references. I have something to contribute when you do

I'm on my current read through on a Kindle...which is actually the worst device ever for research. Next time I see a good armor description, I will post it here.

It seems we cannot decide on whether to use the HBO adaption or book description. So I propose the next best logical solution in order to end the heated debate.

As an artist, this is my interpretation of the Lannister guards when I was reading the book (technically Jaime is Kingsguard but he'll be wearing Lannister stuff). I am sure most readers imagined the same.



I am also throwing in a Westerman King's crown.



Clearly this is the most ideal decision to take.

Galle wrote:

Ogaburan wrote:It also seems you are taking this too seriously and/or personally...

I'm not the one so irrationally angry at the show that I thought a minor character's name change was sig-worthy.

I am sorry, i did not know my sig dosent meet with forum standards... i will change it immediately. I deeply apologies for letting my subjective views known publicly, it shall never happen again.
(Could you also provide me with a list of subjects that are sig-worthy, just in case i would like to change my current one in the future?)

For someone arguing so much pro "subjective-ness", all you seem to do is passively-aggressively harass people who disagree with you.

What really rubbed me the wrong way was actually this;

Galle wrote:Unlike Edric, I am perfectly capable of taking one and leaving the other without my brain exploding.

What a pompous attitude, its even obvious he is not the only one thinking like that... so everyone with a different artistic-opinion has a lower brain capacity then you?
And ofc now the sig-police has arrived...
...but dont take it to hard, wouldn't want your brain exploding by not being able to understand people actually disagree with you. Or god forbid behave in manners you deem unworthy.

There was nothing wrong with Edric asking the artist to Ignore the show when drawing inspiration.
Nothing wrong with you disagreeing, why get personal tho?

@dauncosony

lolz
I really like your attitude, and these portraits are damn impressive!

Agreed with Oga, Galle, your case has just lost a lot of clout with the personal attacks. They're not required. Lets try to keep this on topic please, it appears to have turned into two people arguing with each other for the sake of arguing. Edric you appear to be pretty much agreed with any civilised pro-HBO sentiment in concept so long as you're not doing it. There doesn't really appear to be any further points being made with people now arguing about how much they agree with each other with as much passive-aggressiveness as humanly possible... In other words, this thread is quickly turning into a Troll Fest!

Lets tone it down or cut it out, if we have nothing more constructive to add then leave it be. We don't want anger brewing between team members people!

Please guys, let's try to be civil and keep the ad-hominems and personal attacks to a minimum, ok?

Ogaburan wrote:Galle wrote:Unlike Edric, I am perfectly capable of taking one and leaving the other without my brain exploding.

Galle, you're just taking this too far and taking this too personally. I'm not attacking you, I'm not having a dig at you, I'm not arguing at you. I'm just debating. Now you are starting to insult me.

dauncosony wrote:Could any of you guys be kind enough to post references to the descriptions of armors in the books? I know it's strange for the artist requesting for a reference like this, but I'm a bit busy with other paintings as well and if any of you guys have the time, please post those references for us artists!

100(ish) years war (1330's-1450's)

The best sources in my experience are illustrative history books (check out the Osprey books), historical re-enactment group sites and the trusty internet search engines. You can also find photo galleries including all sorts of images of arms, armour and outfits from armour and costume collecting enthusiast websites (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/index.php?) + (http://www.outfit4events.com/index.php). I have even used medieval themed miniatures as a good source of reference and/or inspiration (http://www.miniaturenland.de/en) + (http://www.valdemar2012.expositus.com/default.asp?Site=Galleri) . There's also lots of 'low' fantasy art work by lots of artists that can be inspiring, look at other games for inspiration too. Then there are films that can be viewed to get the creative juices flowing. An oldie but goldie 'Knights of the Round Table (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_hpJgsVXxI&NR=1) [I know it's way before the 100 years war but the tabbards and CoA are fantastic, the costume design for its day is excellent.] I have lots of online sources I can share with you. If you have skype or msn I can send you over my bookmarks. Then there are the descriptions

Combine that with what we know of the cultures and houses of Westeros and you can start developing unique designs for the various cultures.

I know how beneficial it is to take inspiration from a wide range of sources and in the context of this mod with particular emphasis on our historical counterparts. The descriptions in the book aren't well detailed, but from interviews and correspondence from Martin we know that his vision is based on history (and specifically a technological and cultural equivalent of 1337-1453). I also think it is best that the artist themselves do the research, or at least a good bulk of it. That way they have an idea of what sort of thing they are looking for and it really helps to develop the design and concept in their heads. A very important process to work like this is doing the research.

With regards to book descriptions, here is a little essay of sorts. It focuses on just a few little snippets from A Game of Thrones. Upon reading it anyone with an imagination can begin to form an idea of design when reading the description of an outfit/costume. It points out the overall historical basis of design for the description of the outfits with some slight fantasy elements (the Knightly helms with their themed helmets, almost like the historical 'crests'):

The following excerpt from A Game of Thrones (Bantam Trade paperback edition (c) 2002) highlights the difference between a knight and a household guard when it comes to their armament. It compares the Lannister red cloaks in King's Landing at the time of King Robert's death to a knight of the Kingsguard, which may seem an unfair comparison, excepting the fact that at that point in time, the red cloaks are actually the standing household guard that was sent to KL from Casterly Rock, so as a point of comparison, you are likely looking at the best armed and armored knighthood in the land paired with the best armed and armored household guard in the land.

This comes from the fight between Syrio Forel and Ser Meryn Trant of the Kingsguard (with the support of the Red Cloaks):

"The red cloaks came at him from three sides with steel in their hands. They had chainmail over their chests and arms and steel codpieces sewn into their pants, but only leather on their legs. Their hands were bare, and the caps they wore had noseguards but no visor over the eyes." (pg 446)

This compares to the Description of Ser Meryn later in the page:

"...the knight in his pale armor head to foot, legs, throat and hands sheathed in metal, eyes hidden behind his high white helm, and in his hand cruel cruel steel. Against that: Syrio in a leather vest, with a wooden sword in his hand." (pgs 446 and 447)

It continues to describe the battle:

"Syrio danced away from his cut, his stick a blur. In a heartbeat, he had bounced blows off the knight's temple, elbow and throat, the wood ringing against the metal of helm, gauntlet and gorget." (pg 447)

I've included art of Ser Meryn showing him sans helm. The comparison here could be seen as imperfect, given that a household guard in the city and a household guard at war might be far different, I for one am not sure that you can't infer a 'war stance' from what they're already wearing. I offer another comparison of one on one combat from earlier in AGoT during the trial of Tyrion Lannister by battle between Ser Vardis Egen and Bronn.

"Ser Vardis Egen was was steel from head to heel, encased in heavy plate armor over mail and padded surcoat. Larger circular rondels, enamled cream-and-blue in the moon-and-falcon sigil of House Arryn, protected the vulnerable juncture of arm and breast. A skirt of lobstered metal covered him from waist to midthigh, while a solid gorget encircled his throat. Falcon's wings sprouted from the temples of his helm, and his visor was a pointed metal beak with a narrow slit for vision.

"Bronn was so lightly armored he looked almost naked beside the knight. He wore only a shirt of black oiled ringmail over boiled leather, a round steel halfhelm with a noseguard, and a mail coif. High leather boots with steel shin guards gave some protection for his legs, and discs of black iron were sewn into the fingers of his gloves." (pg 365)

I would suggest that most Men-at-Arms would have an approximate arming similar to Bronn's, perhaps a little bit more rugged. It is difficult to judge because outside of Knights, we get very little detail of how everyday troops go about their business (outside of the Ironborn). It's talked about time and time again how many of the troops aren't professional soldiers, that they are instead the Lords' smallfolk who are being taken away from their fields just at the time of harvest, just before the Winter. Middling units may add a simple gorget or heavier gauntlets, especially if they're swordsmen.

Please PM me if you would like those resource and research book marks and I can give you contact details. I hope this helps.