*SPOILER* Who is Azor Ahai?

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*SPOILER* Who is Azor Ahai?

PostPosted by Dactylartha » Tue Jul 16, 2013 04:38

As many fans of the books, I'd come to my own conclusions as to the interpretations of Melisandrae's visions and the stories of Azor Ahai. Today, I read an article that turned my world upside down: my sun now sets in the east, etc. This article is only for those who have finished all 5 books or don't care to have some major plot twists numbed, and it may very well be old news. I, for one, am sold:

http://gameofthronesandnorsemythology.blogspot.com/2013/05/jaime-azor-ahai-god-of-war.html?m=1
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Re: *SPOILER* Who is Azor Ahai?

PostPosted by Dactylartha » Tue Jul 16, 2013 05:42

The rest of the author's posts are equally convincing. But don't take my word for it:

http://gameofthronesandnorsemythology.blogspot.com/
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Re: *SPOILER* Who is Azor Ahai?

PostPosted by SpottedPate » Tue Jul 16, 2013 06:19

Well... Isn't the whole thing mostly just this guy going "I reject all the hints given in the book as to who Azor Ahai could be, a substitute it with stuff a has a vague connection with ancient norse myth". Frankly, I find that this is grasping at straws; he says that we are looking in the wrong direction, when we a looking for the obvious answers, but to be honest, most of GRRM's foreshadowing is quite straightforward. The Red wedding and the betrayal of RB and his son was a long time coming, and the fact that the three eyed raven is Bryden Rivers is painfully obvious. Personally, I believe AA to be Jon Snow, as that would make the most sense, especially if R + L = J turns out to be true.

That, and the fact that once you think about it, Jaime has almost nothing in common with Tyr, once you think about it.
Yes, both Tyr and Jaime are the sons of very powerful men, but that is something Jaime has in common with most gods in general. Also, it is important to keep in mind that Tyr was not only missing a hand, but rather a whole arm (Donal Noye would come closer to meeting that criteria). Lastly, the circumstances under which the two lost their hands are totally different; Zollo chops jaime's hand off for amusement while Tyr loses his while trying to calm (and chain) the wolf of Fenris.
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Re: *SPOILER* Who is Azor Ahai?

PostPosted by LancelotLoire » Tue Jul 16, 2013 06:38

Well lets see, first off I'm of the strong belief that two prophecies exist about two seperate people IE: Prince that was Promised is a Targaryen (Aegon VI imo) and that Azor Ahai is a completely seperate unique person.
He does have his word usages a bit miffed up a bit. A savior is basically somebody who saves somebody from something else. There is no real requirement that a savior has to be a perfectly nice guy, only that they save somebody from something else. Plus there was actually no mention of Azor Ahai being the "savior of humanity" only that: "And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him". As can be seen, the only mention is that darkness will flee before him.

Ragnarok is a curious example here, especially with the mention of Jaime. We know that his hand was cut off by the order of Vargo Hoat who was acting under bot in this action not for Roose Bolton. Tyr's hand however was bitten off by the wolf Fenrir. Of course this can hypothetically be seen as the "wolf" cutting it off. He is however mistaken with who actually prevails over Fenrir. During Ragnarok it is not Tyr but Vidarr who kills the wolf. I am a bit curious on his addition that Odin and Thor were later additions. Thor for instance is derived from "Þórr" which basically related to Perkwunos, the indo-european god of thunder and oak. Odin is derived from Wōđanaz another of the indo-european gods. So I'm definitely starting to wonder at what point he considers to be 'earlier' as they both were around during the Indo-European god Dyeus. PS: Odin later displaced Tyr for the Norse.

His comparison for Aerys to Odin is vastly off. In that Odin is not considered to be a deity of lunacy. He was known to have had a pair of ravens (Huginn and Muninn), a pair of wolves (Geri and Freki), and was a deity of intellect and magics on top of various others. With those last two I think the closest character representation would be Bran and Brynden Rivers in the story.

His comparison for Robert Baratheon to Thor is also a bit strange. The only basis here is that Robert used a hammer and so did Thor. There is an inclusion that during Ragnarok, Thor is slain in battle and slays the serpent Jormungandr. Which I suppose could go towards Robert in a little bit. Roberts death at the hands of the Lannisters (Serpents) also leads to their demise as well.

Back to Tyr again, he is of course supposed to be killed during Ragnarok by the mighty dog Garm. It is an interesting side note, the only mention of a "Mighty One" is not included in the original Ragnarok, but is considered to be a bastardized addition by christians into a poem about the end of times.

The next supposition he tacks on is about the red star which is an interesting twist. He is taking into account that a comet is not a sun, which of course is true as we know it today. However we are talking about a type of setting that from what can be told does not have telescopes. Calling the comet a star as it is in the sky, shines bright with a tail as bleeding is very much an accurate way of describing it. It's also true however that Martell that a sun is also a star and that there have been some Martell's that have bled. However I am very curious as to how this can be right as this particular line in the prophecy reads as “When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt". Where is it that when Oberyn Martell is bleeding is it that Jaime is reborn? The quote I used is from Mellisandre who of course in my opinion is stealing something from the prince that was promised prophecy and tacking it onto the Azor Ahai prophecy, but that's besides the point.

In interesting concept here is that he goes about splitting the prophetic heroes apart. A seperation in that the Prince that was Promised has the song of ice and fire, and that azor ahai is the light and must fight the darkness. However I am not sure I'd agree with Bran being considered the "Darkness" that is mentioned. The tree in which Bran is under is most likely a reference to the Yggdrasill of Norse legends. Not to mention that the Three-Eyed crow is most likely a reference more towards Odin's Ravens. In that it knows of skinchanging and will most certaintly know of quiet a lot of knowledge in that it is almost assuredly Bloodraven. The skeleton that was him is also in interesting note in that Odin had one eye (As did Bloodraven) and that Odin was also associated with death.

His take on the steam bath and Jaime Lannister is actually quiet convincing. I really have no argument for this in that it's very plausible. As well ast the take on the salt bit as dinner. However the Ham bit is a bit of a stretch on things.
"When Oberyn Martell dies and Bran meets the Three-Eyed Crow, Jaime Lannister will be freed from prison after dinner and a bath".
An interesting take on things however there are two major major flaws with that specific quote. Oberyn Martell died after Jaime had been released from prison, in fact Jaime was already in King's Landing at the time. And even more, Bran doesn't meet the three-eyed crow in person until A dance with Dragons which of course was well after the release.

This next bit is completely isnane in the thinking. This theory is even more retarded than the thought that Tyrion is the bastard child of Aerys. I mean, first off if Tywin resigned as hand for aerys because aerys was infatuated with Joanna... Wait we have a large factual error here, Jaime was roughly 8 years old when Joanna died, however Tywin resigned AFTER Jaimese was made a member of the Kingsguard (aged 15). That was 7 years after the womans death so we can automatically say, no that was not the real reason nor did it have any bearing on the decision.

Egg I would say probably also dod not have an irrational fear of bastards. Sending Bloodraven to the wall if at all anything was most likely to honor his uncle Aemon or was perhaps also agreed to by Brynden to remove himself from any possible plots. There could also stem a disliking between Egg and Bloodraven in that Egg's father had had (yes two uses is proper here) Bloodraven imprisoned for a long time. The fathers dislike could easily have transitioned to him as well.

All in all, I'm going to have to say this guys theory is completely all over the place, and he should actually take a look up of some actual norse mythologies.



BTW: SpottedPate, Tyr only lost his hand, not his arm.

EDIT: I am way too lazy to go through fixing spelling errors, so if you see one, live with it.
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Re: *SPOILER* Who is Azor Ahai?

PostPosted by Dissmaster » Tue Jul 16, 2013 06:59

Like it!

Jaime is one of the best characters anyway.
Stark (Eddard(Sean Bean, you know), Bran, Rickon and the direwolves)
Lannister (Tyrion, Jaime and Tywin in his early years)
Targaryen (except the mad ones ;) )

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Re: *SPOILER* Who is Azor Ahai?

PostPosted by Dactylartha » Tue Jul 16, 2013 07:04

I know only bits and pieces of the Norse Myths, so your corrections are well-noted. His other articles (which I linked in the second post) are also quite convincing, particularly about the children of the forest and the faceless men. There seems to be too many coincidences between the story we know and Ragnarok, which is what really cued me in to this article, but he later (or earlier, chronologically) mentions that "Jon's resurrected, soulless corpse becomes Surtr" and is bound to Hel, in his predictions about the fall of the wall.

The Jamie article had me convinced that I knew nothing, and the other articles really threw me for a loop. He mentions that Dany represents Jormungandr, which I find quite easy to swallow.
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Re: *SPOILER* Who is Azor Ahai?

PostPosted by LancelotLoire » Tue Jul 16, 2013 07:08

Hmm alright, I'll bite and take a look at some of his other threads. May make some more inclinations towards this as well.
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Re: *SPOILER* Who is Azor Ahai?

PostPosted by Dactylartha » Tue Jul 16, 2013 07:11

As a side note: one of the gems of having read the books and watching the show is that we get to notice the differences between the two renditions. The Developers of the show are the only two other than GRRM who know the major plot twists, and so the differences are huge hints as to what to expect in the future and guide our predictions. This author mentions a few of them (a northman cutting the hand off of Jamie, the ravens flocking at Craester's keep before the white walker) that I noticed but didn't have any inclination as to what they mean. At the very least, his perspectives are a great starting point to re-examine what we expect out of the future of the song of fire and ice.
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Re: *SPOILER* Who is Azor Ahai?

PostPosted by LancelotLoire » Tue Jul 16, 2013 08:31

Okay this guy has a lot of guesses here that seem to not be based on anything realistic. However there are some rare occurances where he does get somethings fairly close. As well I included a relatively interesting part at the bottom.

Ragnarök - The Song of Ice & Fire
Skipping over Bran/Jaime/Brynden..
Freyr as Walder Frey.. I suppose I can see that in a ways. Frey was definitely blessed with virility in multiple ways. Which ties in with Freyr being a god of virility. Not only that but as the Twins are considered to be a very prosperous area, that also ties in with Freyr being the god of Prosperity.
Heimdallr as Sam Tarly.. I definitely don't see this. For instance Heimdallr is known to have very good eyesight and I definitely recall that Sam Tarly mentions that his eyesite is useless. He was also known for having foreknowledge. Honestly Samwell Tarly isn't really known for predicting the future at all. Really all he's known for is his cowardice and booksmarts.
Frigg as Cersei.. Well Frigg was known as having the power of prophecy, that's about the only thing that could at a stretch be said of Cersei. Although Cersei does not have the ability to have any, she's only had one given to her. Honestly there is absolutely not basis of comparison here. Cersei is a complete and total idiot and the only similarity here is that they're both queens.
Freyja as Margaery.. goddess of love, sexuality, beauty, fertility, gold, sorcery, war and death... Yeahhhh.. the only similarity here is that they are both beautiful. Not a good comparison at all.
Idunn as Sansa.. This one like Walder Frey does have some similarities as well. Lured out of Asgard by Loki and then kidnapped by Þjazi who was in the form of an eagle. Sansa being smuggled out of King's Landing by Petyr who smuggles her to the Vale. This would also mean that the young Arryn lord would be Þjazi in this part.
Brynhildr as Brienne.. Name starts with B, and they are both female warriors. That's the only similarity between the two of them.
Njordr as Theon.. Again the only thing here that corresponds is that Njordr is a god of the sea and seafaring and Theon is an Ironborn. Basically this god could be associated with every single Ironborn or sailor.
Kvasir as Jojen Reed.. No real similarities between the two. I suppose as Jojen is supposed to be wise above his years and Kvasir is extremely wise... There is also some very big guesses here that thinks Bran is going to cannibalize Jojen (interesting).
Baldr as Joffrey.. They were both killed by trickery.. Basically the only similarity.
Vidarr as Tommen.. Yeahhh this is definitely a bit of a leap here. The god of vengeance who kills Fenrir to avenge the death of his father. There is absolutely no similarity between them... Unless Tommen kills or has Cersei put to death.. Which would be hilarious.

Loki I think is more inclined to be similar to Petyr Baelish. As I mentioned above with Sansa.


Anyways wow... This part here is a bit of insanity that I actually might want to have happen.
"Hel & Surtr are represented by Melisandre & Jon Snow. Melisandre currently resides in an ice world, at the Wall (i.e. the Bifrost Bridge), and wears a glamor to hide the fact that she is either extremely old, or already dead (i.e. two faces). She is also an enemy of the Seven, and obsessed with death and sacrifice, constantly searching for king's blood to feed to her fires. And, up until this point, she has provided Stannis with his fiery sword.

Similarly, Jon Snow has "taken the Black" and lives at the Wall, which separates the realm of the Others from the realm of men. And, even though he too lives in an ice world, his relationship to fire is symbolized by Ygritte, who was "kissed by fire".

This probably means that Melisandre will raise Jon Snow from the dead, similar to the way Thoros resurrects Beric Dondarrion -- and Beric, in turn, raises Catelyn -- and convert him to the Lord of Light. She will then become his "wife", much the same as she was Stannis', and Jon will then assume his role as the Night's King (the Son of Craster Jon & Melisandre are holding will draw the White Walkers to them). And in that role, he will knock down the Wall and lead the "Sons of Muspell" (i.e. the Sons of Craster -- the Others -- White Walkers) into the realm to do battle with mankind (i.e. those who worship the Seven -- which is an allusion to Norse numerology -- although it should be noted, the Norse held the numbers three and nine holy, rather than seven. But it's a subtle difference)."
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Re: *SPOILER* Who is Azor Ahai?

PostPosted by HuskyWolf » Tue Jul 16, 2013 12:30

why is this here moving to story and lore section
please keep all spoiler material from the book out of this section
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Re: *SPOILER* Who is Azor Ahai?

PostPosted by brad2206 » Tue Jul 16, 2013 15:26

This guy is really clutching at straws, 15 minutes I will never get back. Basically as i see it, Azor Ahai = Jon Snow, Prince That was Promised = Daenerys or Aegon (not sure about this one as Aegon could be the Murmers Dragon, as foretold by Quaithe), the last hero = Jaime (his general redemption story arc , and his potential showdown with Lady Stoneheart leads me to believe this. Also the article does make some sense about this, Bran seeing him in his dream). So yeah basically these are my thoughts on the subject
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Re: *SPOILER* Who is Azor Ahai?

PostPosted by Bardo » Fri Jul 26, 2013 07:16

Lol, Azor Ahai some Norse mythology, sure...
R'hllor is a sun-god, heir of Zoroastrian mythology, which then developed in many variants, like judaic faiths and other mithraic faiths, the most important is the roman mithraic cult which then helped the expansion of the cult of the undefeated light, Lux Invicta in latin, or Sol Invictus, the undefeated sun. The cult was imposed as the emperors cult when Aurelianus rose to power, defeating all the enemies of his lord of light, making different sacrifices to him so he would destroy his enemies. I always saw a lot of Aurelianus in Stannis. Then, of course, all sun worshiping faiths have a "son of the sun, or son of god", a tradition started since the myth of the messiah and Alexander the great declaring himself pharaoh. Every Mediterranean faith at imperial roman times who was based around the sun, who gave life, crops and valor to men and defeated his cold enemies had a mortal figure to guide men in their struggle against the "Great Other" (Seth, the devil, etc), from Osiris to Jesus, countless deities, all died and were reborn, all made sacrifices for mankind, and so forth.

Amazing how many people around the globe are infatuated with norse mythology, a small, tiny faith that if it wasn't for the post-industrial revolution racism generated in northern European countries, wouldn't have any relevance at all, while all the faiths from the nations of the "civilized world of the time" that clearly reflects Essos, are barely looked upon in general terms. The book gives enough hints about the old empires of Essos reflecting Egypt, Roman and Macedonian empires. Azor Ahai's myth is old, and apparently comes from Essos, so better to look into Mediterranean, Mesopotamic faiths.
In fact, Martin even states the R'hllor faith is based in both Cathar and Mithraic beliefs.

Concerning Jaime, it's obvious he and Cersei are Tywin's children. They look nothing like Aerys. Aerys didn't rule, Tywin did, so I would like to see how that frail dumb-crazy king could have raped the wife of an intrigue master, brilliant commander and ruthless genius, who, without any doubt, would had killed/overthrown that king very easily.
Then, the Norse mythology fan mistakes Germanic beliefs with northern Germanic/nord beliefs. There were many of those, and the Norse themsevles were quite isolated from main Germanic culture. The Goth's were the only northern tribe who went south to mainland Germania, but they lost most of their northern culture as they got mixed more and more with the actual Germanic tribes. Romans never met Norsemen, they began sailing east and west a lot later.
And, of course, the fact that Azor Ahai is meant to fight the others, no red priest argues about that, it's his main goal, his sole reason to be.

I believe that, besides the myth and how it's portrayed in the book, Martin created an original and simple lore for his god's and his supernatural abilities. The characters themselves seem more based on actual historical figures from the War of the Roses, the Jacobite Rebellion and much more.
I mean, the three brothers of House of York, three brothers of Baratheon. Lancaster and Lannister seem alike, while Stark and York sound alike too. Bonnie prince Charlie of Scotland and his northern rebellion that ended on the northmen being defeated and strict rules imposed over them, while the Hanover's kept the throne. The exiled pretenders, the female heirs, the boy-kings on the iron throne like Edward of York's children. So much to go about on the characters, and they chose Norse mythos, wow...

I would look into Greek mythos for Azor Ahai, personally. The valyrian culture reflects a lot the greeks and latins, as being the root of the bastardized languages that speak people from cities that seem Mediterranean. Aegon, for example, seems like a really greek name, the AE is a typical greek phonetic. The valyrian freehold (sounds a lot like the greek leagues or the Federalist system the latin cities lead by Rome used) rose quickly to power and then crumbled (Like Alexander's empire). Greek kings married their sisters, they had centuries of fraternal marriage that ended in some, not a lot, of crazy kings, but some have proven to be brilliant, like Cleopatra, who was descendant of three hundred years of incestuous marriages and proved to be a genius. Her rule over Egypt, her popularity with the common people, her son by Caesar who would have ruled the entire world and so on make her a figure on which Dany could be clearly based on. In fact, Alexander conquered the known world, including Egypt, and the dynasty instaured, the Ptolemaic's ruled for three hundred years, same as the Targs did. Both keeping the honorable tradition of sister fucking. Cleopatra was called "Mother" by her people, and associated herself with Isis, mother of Horus, the promised king, etc.

I would leave Norse mythology speculations to Ironborn and Northmen, even tho' they are mixed with several faiths, like Celtic and Germanic. I like the Odin and his ravens comparison to the three-eyed raven, considering he is a god that reflects wisdom and else. But anyways, Martin has clarified that he mixes parts of real life faith's and he is always based on them, but never copies them quite exactly, they are just inspirations, we can expect them to vary, not to be exactly how they are pointed out in our own world.
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Re: *SPOILER* Who is Azor Ahai?

PostPosted by Arthurius Targaryen » Fri Jul 26, 2013 07:32

Sorry to bring up old Threads, but Whatever.

Didnt GRRM not want to use so much mythology in his books? Just like C.S Lewis didn't like how much mythology his friend Tolkien put in his.

As long as it doesnt end with some big strong (generic) Return of The King crap of "oh look big strong hero, he'll save us and unite the realm", then i have no problem reading the books and already knowing whats gonna happen.
(seriously people read Of The Rings of Power in the Silmarillion it tells you basically a summary of Lord of The Rings in 2 pages-ish, so i have no problem with spoilers)
Personally i just want to see a good ending, Daenerys ruling something, Seriously just Unite Essos into New Valyria is good enough for me, or be the Dothraki Queen, Maybe Tommen keeps the throne, wouldnt mind seeing a young rather compassionate child(unlike Joffrey) ruling Westeros, or someone melting that damned throne. Jon becoming Night King doesnt sound bad. How about we Kill Melisandre, and Roose, that's about it for me. Seriously i hate how she pulls off a few "miracles" and magically Stannis listens to everything she says, i mean if you're gonna make the Whole King of Judea with God's Prophet as his advisor thing, at least make her get her prophecies right and her interpreting them right(seriously where in the bible does God's Prophet(s) not interpret their visions correctly).
I'd bet money on her finally actually getting a prophecy right, but Stannis gets so fed up with her past wrongs that he kills her and then goes "OMG she wasnt wrong this time!"
I don't like Roose, and i dont like this whole Western Crap of "Loyalty is for suckers" that GRRM tosses around, or basically all the guys that stay loyal to their lords no matter what getting killed or wronged(Barristan getting fired from the Kingsguard though he never deserted his King or killed him like Jaime).
You'd also like to think there'd be more Non-White/White Depicted(Valyrians for example) people in GRRM"S world, i mean, i can give Tolkien that one because it was WW1 when he started his first writings on his world, different era then. Yet i still didn't like how all the evil people in Tolkien's World were depicted alongside Darkness, and not fitting his Pure Elf looking/ Edain looking crap, all the evil men for instance fighting for Sauron and being described as Dark skinned or tan (Haradrim). You'd like to think back in 1996 GRRM wouldnt fall into that trap, couldn't just add like one major character who was Black or something you know? Oh wait, Dany's husband, yea the only one positively depicted non-white person in the whole series(he's Asian if you get the drift).
Norse Mythology Conjecture, yeah real original, like someone hasn't already done that before, oh wait umm, didn't Tolkein involve a ton or Norse and Celtic Mythology in his works, i think he did? But no its just so original that theres another writer who we can magically compare his writings to Norse Mythology and then Magically go, "oh i know what he'll write next"(Sarcasm) Oooh but wait, has any writer ever written a fiction novel based on Chinese, or Indian, or Iranian, mythology, lemme see, oh i cant think of any?!
The game i like, the Books, im reading them because i don't like them, so then after i read them i'll know exactly why i didnt like them.
The Guy is grasping at straws, and sorry for my rant, theres just so much that could have been done better about ASOIAF. If people here really want epic if rather long Story telling that encompasses everything ASOIAF does, and a History that doesnt need to be fiction, read The Three Kingdoms, Luo Guanzhong the Moss Roberts translation, though its Chinese centric, its Historical fiction storytelling at its finest.
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Re: *SPOILER* Who is Azor Ahai?

PostPosted by Bardo » Fri Jul 26, 2013 07:43

Well, Tolkien was a racist catholic fanatic, really. But Aragorn on the other side was quite a plain dark guy. But yes, it's very racist, just watch the movie, all the people of Rohan are blond, it's hilarious.
One more thing, Roose is a true loyalist.
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Re: *SPOILER* Who is Azor Ahai?

PostPosted by LancelotLoire » Fri Jul 26, 2013 08:09

Apologizing ahead of time: Sorry if this comes off as a little rude, I am not meaning it too.
Arthurius Targaryen wrote: How about we Kill Melisandre, and Roose, that's about it for me. Seriously i hate how she pulls off a few "miracles" and magically Stannis listens to everything she says, i mean if you're gonna make the Whole King of Judea with God's Prophet as his advisor thing, at least make her get her prophecies right and her interpreting them right(seriously where in the bible does God's Prophet(s) not interpret their visions correctly).
I'd bet money on her finally actually getting a prophecy right, but Stannis gets so fed up with her past wrongs that he kills her and then goes "OMG she wasnt wrong this time!"

“Ser Cortnay will be dead within a day. Melisandre has seen it in the flames of the future...Melisandre saw another day in her flames as well. A morrow when Renly rode out of the south in his green armor to smash my host beneath the walls of King’s Landing. Had I met my brother there, I would have died instead of him.”
*Ser Corntay did die, and the Renly that rode was actually partially true in that it was actually Garlan Tyrell wearing Renly's armor.

“More false kings will soon rise to take of the crowns of those who died.”
*Tommen and Euron Greyjoy.

There are at least two of her prophecies that have come true. BTW, the books in the bible were actually written after the events usually. So it's easy to say "oh hey I interpretted that correctly".

Arthurius Targaryen wrote:You'd also like to think there'd be more Non-White/White Depicted(Valyrians for example) people in GRRM"S world, i mean, i can give Tolkien that one because it was WW1 when he started his first writings on his world, different era then. Yet i still didn't like how all the evil people in Tolkien's World were depicted alongside Darkness, and not fitting his Pure Elf looking/ Edain looking crap, all the evil men for instance fighting for Sauron and being described as Dark skinned or tan (Haradrim). You'd like to think back in 1996 GRRM wouldnt fall into that trap, couldn't just add like one major character who was Black or something you know? Oh wait, Dany's husband, yea the only one positively depicted non-white person in the whole series(he's Asian if you get the drift)

Dorne: 1/3rd of the people are dark skinned, 1/3rd of the people are Olive skinned, 1/3rd of the people are Fair skinned.
Summer Isles: 100% Black
Dothraki: Think Mongolian.
Essos: Majority of the people of Essos are Olive/Tanned/Darker skinned colored with only a portion being fair skinned.

In fact I'm a little curious on where you're coming up with the only positively depicted non-white person being Drogo. I am fairly certain that the majority of non-white characters are portrayed as 'good'. It would be way too difficult to go into detail here, but that slaver bay noblemen who married Dany was definitely an evil one, and a few of the Dothraki. But honestly, most of these groups of peoples are based off of real world groups through out history. And as Westeros is about 10% non white ancestry it's safe to say that the majority of characters are going to be white.

Non-White Valyrians: Rhaenys Targaryen (Rhaegar's daughter), Baelor Targaryen (Daeron II's son), and most likely several others. Technically I suppose you consider a decent portion of the Martell's as being Valyrian in a way, as they are descended from a coupling between a Martell and a Targaryen.

Arthurius Targaryen wrote:Norse Mythology Conjecture, yeah real original, like someone hasn't already done that before, oh wait umm, didn't Tolkein involve a ton or Norse and Celtic Mythology in his works, i think he did? But no its just so original that theres another writer who we can magically compare his writings to Norse Mythology and then Magically go, "oh i know what he'll write next"(Sarcasm) Oooh but wait, has any writer ever written a fiction novel based on Chinese, or Indian, or Iranian, mythology, lemme see, oh i cant think of any?!
The game i like, the Books, im reading them because i don't like them, so then after i read them i'll know exactly why i didnt like them.
The Guy is grasping at straws, and sorry for my rant, theres just so much that could have been done better about ASOIAF. If people here really want epic if rather long Story telling that encompasses everything ASOIAF does, and a History that doesnt need to be fiction, read The Three Kingdoms, Luo Guanzhong the Moss Roberts translation, though its Chinese centric, its Historical fiction storytelling at its finest.

Btw you mean the Sanguozhi or Romance of the Three Kingdoms. Three Kingdoms is just a name for the time period. And I'm a bit interested in how you don't classify this novel as being mythology based. It was written about 1400 years afterwards and basically presents Liu Bei to be a chinese equivalent of Christ. Anyways it's not even that good of a historical fiction book. It's basicaly an 83 chapter book glorifying the state of Shu who for practical historical purposes was led by a repeated backstabbing traitor with an inferiority complex and a desire to have the throne. They however don't mention that in the book. Sorry if this comes off as a bit rough, but atm the time period that I am most familiar with is the Three Kingdoms era and I have an absolute love of history, so that's saying something. (And I frequent forums related to the period either book/game/movies based. So I've listened to a lot of arguments from people who don't know what they're talking about).

Anyways there are definitely books based off of all of those mythologies printed somewhere and are probably having more being written. The difference being is that those are considered part of the 'Eastern World' and we're in the 'Western World' so writers are more likely to use things originating from western mythologies as more people will be familiar with them.

As for other cultural mythologies that have books using them... Aladdin I suppose would work although it's an Arabic folk tale. As for others though... I can't rightly think of any books atm but I can think of several instances of games/movies/television series where they play a part.
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Re: *SPOILER* Who is Azor Ahai?

PostPosted by Arthurius Targaryen » Fri Jul 26, 2013 17:39

LancelotLoire wrote:Summer Isles: 100% Black

Okay, and where exactly is it they appear in the book? I know they get a mention in AGOT as i've read so far.
LancelotLoire wrote:Dothraki: Think Mongolian.

Yeah, i know, but what gets me is the whole Noble savage depiction as someone called it. "I cant speak her language except for the word 'No' but i can have sex with her really good" <-- Drogo. I mean come on, yes we all know the giant Mongol Horde was a terror of the Western World and the Steppe is virtually endless, i just feel like theres alot more he could have studied about Mongolian culture and done, then just taking a few gems and well known facts. (Genghis Khan was a very good husband to his Principal wife, eventhough the first child by her wasn't actually hers, he still raised the child as his own, disqualified him from the succession though).
Yeah i get the whole Essos/Dorne supposed to be Middle Eastern, but i don't see them being totally as integral to the books, GRRM even stated it himself concerning Essos, i cant remember his exact words, but he did note that its not so important.
Bottom line, give me a Middle Eastern Hero(or someone non-white being main protagonists(s) (Arabian Knights) and i would have probably turned my head and gone woah!

Also, the reason i like Daenerys is she's basically the only positively depicted idealistic leader of a woman in the book. Cersei is a bitch we know that, Sansa belongs in the role of, "I'll do whatever you say because i want to fit in with the group" reminds you of a high school girl trying to get in with the popular kids you know. Arya is the rebel which i like, doesn't fit the mold of "Court Woman" but she doesnt really have a leader role thrust on her, unless in the future she somehow becomes LP of The North. Catelyn just doesn't appeal to me, yes shes a protective mother we get it, but doesnt she basically get her son and herself killed because oh wait,"lets go to the court of a lord whose bribe-able, treats women like objects(Frey) and doesnt really regard his lord so highly and try to get an alliance, oh did i mention we apparently betrayed him in the past."(these are the women ive read over so far). I also hate how alot of people don't like Daenerys and i really don't get the reasons some people make, oh she's a bad ruler, well duh shes only what 15 and has virtually no experience ruling anything thats the whole point of her becoming Queen of Meereen eventually. Or how some people dont give her the sympathy factor because of her abusive arrogant brother Viserys, i have seen these opinions, It Is Known.

Maybe its just the Show that got to me(after all i watched all of Season 3 and basically only saw Tyrion's Girl, and the various populances of Essos as non-white )

Sanguozhi, is the historical version(Records of The Three Kingdoms), Three Kingdoms the Moss Roberts Translation and thats the title of the book(you could technically call it Romance of the Three Kingdoms (which is Wade-Giles)but the translation version i have simply calls it Three Kingdoms). I was member of the only Three Kingdoms centered forum community for two years and i'm pretty sure i know the book is not 83 chapters, its actually 120 or 100 and there have been many versions. The Anti-Shu Cao-Wei take on it is as you said concerning Liu Bei and i do see that to some regard, my favorite character is Cao Cao after all. 83 chapters with regards to Liu Bei is a story character for 83 chapters and then dies ( i have got to start reading peoples posts more thoroughly i actually though you were trying to be rude, and then i saw your () statement and went oh, now thats something) . Off topic here, are you a member of The-Scholars Lancelot?

Still don't like the guy's whole Norse/Nordic centric based comparisons, and then trying to predict the book's outcome, bottom line he isn't GRRM and some of his comparisons as previously people have mentioned are way off. I get what your saying here
LancelotLoire wrote:Anyways there are definitely books based off of all of those mythologies printed somewhere and are probably having more being written. The difference being is that those are considered part of the 'Eastern World' and we're in the 'Western World' so writers are more likely to use things originating from western mythologies as more people will be familiar with them.
but i mean, just take a shot at comparing the ASOIAF characters with other cultural mythologies, and you might actually make more people interested in the books, then the generic Norse comparison(This is what Tolkien took his works from in a great degree). The Old Testament comparison i made of Melisandre for one(shes a bad prophet still in my regards, or else no one would try to kill her period.)

Oddly enough in my Arabian Knights book, the Aladdin Story is depicted as Chinese with very clearly attributed Chinese Illustrations, probably just the author's choice and not the actual myth.
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Re: *SPOILER* Who is Azor Ahai?

PostPosted by LancelotLoire » Fri Jul 26, 2013 23:25

Arthurius Targaryen wrote:Okay, and where exactly is it they appear in the book? I know they get a mention in AGOT as i've read so far.

The only major sun islander character that shows up in the books is the displaced prince or king or something who is in King's Landing seeking troops. Other then that mostly the majority of them that show up are boat captains for various people crossing the narrow straights.
Arthurius Targaryen wrote:Yeah, i know, but what gets me is the whole Noble savage depiction as someone called it. "I cant speak her language except for the word 'No' but i can have sex with her really good" <-- Drogo. I mean come on, yes we all know the giant Mongol Horde was a terror of the Western World and the Steppe is virtually endless, i just feel like theres alot more he could have studied about Mongolian culture and done, then just taking a few gems and well known facts. (Genghis Khan was a very good husband to his Principal wife, eventhough the first child by her wasn't actually hers, he still raised the child as his own, disqualified him from the succession though).

They're most likely a conglomeration of several various groups that were well known for their horseriding skills. Another way to look at it is they although they have the appearance of being asian they might also be a reference to earlier groups such as Muslim warriors, because of the curved swords, or even various nomadic groups. The changes he did however did give the Dothraki a very unique culture for them.
Arthurius Targaryen wrote:Yeah i get the whole Essos/Dorne supposed to be Middle Eastern, but i don't see them being totally as integral to the books, GRRM even stated it himself concerning Essos, i cant remember his exact words, but he did note that its not so important.
Bottom line, give me a Middle Eastern Hero(or someone non-white being main protagonists(s) (Arabian Knights) and i would have probably turned my head and gone woah!

Hmm, you didn't consider Oberyn to be a main protagonist/hero? I felt he was very much one. Seeking justice and vengeance over the death of his sister, defending an innocent(Tyrion) man. Fighting to the death and killing the man who brutally rape/murdered his sister only to die gallantly at the hands of the evildoer. I mean it's generally not a rule that a hero has to survive his ordeals or even to succeed in his mission.

Arthurius Targaryen wrote:Also, the reason i like Daenerys is she's basically the only positively depicted idealistic leader of a woman in the book. Cersei is a bitch we know that, Sansa belongs in the role of, "I'll do whatever you say because i want to fit in with the group" reminds you of a high school girl trying to get in with the popular kids you know. Arya is the rebel which i like, doesn't fit the mold of "Court Woman" but she doesnt really have a leader role thrust on her, unless in the future she somehow becomes LP of The North. Catelyn just doesn't appeal to me, yes shes a protective mother we get it, but doesnt she basically get her son and herself killed because oh wait,"lets go to the court of a lord whose bribe-able, treats women like objects(Frey) and doesnt really regard his lord so highly and try to get an alliance, oh did i mention we apparently betrayed him in the past."(these are the women ive read over so far). I also hate how alot of people don't like Daenerys and i really don't get the reasons some people make, oh she's a bad ruler, well duh shes only what 15 and has virtually no experience ruling anything thats the whole point of her becoming Queen of Meereen eventually. Or how some people dont give her the sympathy factor because of her abusive arrogant brother Viserys, i have seen these opinions, It Is Known.
Maybe its just the Show that got to me(after all i watched all of Season 3 and basically only saw Tyrion's Girl, and the various populances of Essos as non-white )

Catelyn also has a deep hatred for Jon Snow (a bit too much batshit crazy hate).

Arthurius Targaryen wrote:Sanguozhi, is the historical version(Records of The Three Kingdoms), Three Kingdoms the Moss Roberts Translation and thats the title of the book(you could technically call it Romance of the Three Kingdoms (which is Wade-Giles)but the translation version i have simply calls it Three Kingdoms). I was member of the only Three Kingdoms centered forum community for two years and i'm pretty sure i know the book is not 83 chapters, its actually 120 or 100 and there have been many versions. The Anti-Shu Cao-Wei take on it is as you said concerning Liu Bei and i do see that to some regard, my favorite character is Cao Cao after all. 83 chapters with regards to Liu Bei is a story character for 83 chapters and then dies ( i have got to start reading peoples posts more thoroughly i actually though you were trying to be rude, and then i saw your () statement and went oh, now thats something) . Off topic here, are you a member of The-Scholars Lancelot?

Eh there's one little confusion you're having. The Records aren't a historical version, but are well records. And I get the names backwards sometimes, I meant to say Sangou Yanyi which is the Romance. And yeah I can't remember the exact number because it has been a while since I've read the book. But it's mostly to do with Liu Bei being alive and in control of Shu. Plus the later chapters are mostly about the rise of the Sima clan.
Lol, yeah I definitely felt after reading what I wrote that it could be construed as that so I needed to put that. The Scholars I used to be a member of it. But I don't remember what my user is and It's been a long time since I've gone on there. I also used to be very active on the Koei forums for their dynasty warriors/tactics/romance of the three kingdoms series of games. Where if you've ever played the Dynasty Warrior Empire games, I take full credit for coming up with the create a warrior improvements that have been implemented. Although they have yet to include the nifty feature of having a pre-selection of several hundred single names that could be combined so other characters could call out your custom warrior by name. IE: Sun Cao kinda thing. As well as being a former frequenter of a forum created by a lot of members of koei because of chafing with the administrators on koei banning for little reasons. Oh and I was a former Game Sage for the dynasty warriors online game hosted by koei. Which has nothing to do with knowledge of history, but knowledge of the gameplay mechanics. All in all I've put about 10+ years worth of time between movies/tv shows/games/forums/books into the time period :D

Arthurius Targaryen wrote:Still don't like the guy's whole Norse/Nordic centric based comparisons, and then trying to predict the book's outcome, bottom line he isn't GRRM and some of his comparisons as previously people have mentioned are way off. I get what your saying here
LancelotLoire wrote:Anyways there are definitely books based off of all of those mythologies printed somewhere and are probably having more being written. The difference being is that those are considered part of the 'Eastern World' and we're in the 'Western World' so writers are more likely to use things originating from western mythologies as more people will be familiar with them.
but i mean, just take a shot at comparing the ASOIAF characters with other cultural mythologies, and you might actually make more people interested in the books, then the generic Norse comparison(This is what Tolkien took his works from in a great degree). The Old Testament comparison i made of Melisandre for one(shes a bad prophet still in my regards, or else no one would try to kill her period.)

Aye I didn't really like the guys nordic/norse based comparison either. To be fair you could look at just about every mythology and draw similarities between them to the events. Tiamat , the Babylonian dragon god of the ocean could be compared to Dany simply because tiamat's a dragon and is called mother. Then pull out some trail of the mythology there in which Tiamat is defeated and Marduk and then name some person Marduk with similarities and say he'll succeed.
Honestly, I wouldn't compare any of the characters in the series to the deities of different mythologies. There are more actual real world people and actions that they could be compared to and as stated by GRRM the series is based off the war of the roses.

Arthurius Targaryen wrote:Oddly enough in my Arabian Knights book, the Aladdin Story is depicted as Chinese with very clearly attributed Chinese Illustrations, probably just the author's choice and not the actual myth.

That's fairly accurate actually. The original Folk Tale was set in China but the characters were mostly named in muslim naming styles and with the religion.
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Re: *SPOILER* Who is Azor Ahai?

PostPosted by AdanRyder » Sat Jul 27, 2013 05:58

Arthurius Targaryen wrote:Yeah i get the whole Essos/Dorne supposed to be Middle Eastern, but i don't see them being totally as integral to the books, GRRM even stated it himself concerning Essos, i cant remember his exact words, but he did note that its not so important.
Bottom line, give me a Middle Eastern Hero(or someone non-white being main protagonists(s) (Arabian Knights) and i would have probably turned my head and gone woah!


Maybe you should read the rest of the books before making statements like this. Cause that's totally not true.
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Re: *SPOILER* Who is Azor Ahai?

PostPosted by pjnlsn » Sat Jul 27, 2013 07:29

I like the idea of interpreting what is apparently the history of Westeros as mythic or legends which grew over time, and also interpreting religious legend/history/prophecy that way. After all, if anyone knows that religion (and sometimes history) may have a kernel of truth but are mostly made-up, it's GRRM. I sense he would approve of us interpreting things that way.

However, I just can't believe like the author of that blog says, that Jaime is Azor Ahai; It's just a bit much. Jaime's basically a man who found redemption, and a sense of purpose, a center, in the midst of suffering and chaos. Or he's a man who came to accept a great evil that had been done to him, and start to move past it. But It's just a little weird to say that he's the savior of humanity (or i forget exactly what Rhlor's worshippers say about Azor Ahai).
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Re: *SPOILER* Who is Azor Ahai?

PostPosted by Tub » Tue Jul 30, 2013 18:14

Every time I read an article about this kind of stuff, I find my mind newly blown. Every time. :D
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