The red wedding *spoilers?*

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Re: The red wedding *spoilers?*

PostPosted by Notalent » Fri Dec 13, 2013 23:22

Sansa Stark wrote:
Notalent wrote:
Sansa Stark wrote:I can't remember Robb killing any members of his family, are we reading the same book/watching the same show? :shock: If you're talking about the Karstarks, the books repeatedly mention that they're distant relatives by this point, they even have different last names, so it would be weird if they counted as Robb's "kin". Go far back enough and most Northmen are related to each other, the Karstark just happen to be the closest family to the Starks.

I'm not sure if it would count as slaying your kin if you were punishing them for a crime. I think it's like guest right, you forfeit that protection if you commit a crime. Otherwise, if your relatives were psychos and kept undermining your authority or doing things that were blatantly illegal you wouldn't be able to punish them.

If there were any divine forces involved with the Red Wedding, I feel like it was Melisandre's spell. Mostly, however, I think it's just Tywin's excellent manipulation skills.

Rickard Karstark tells Robb before hes beheaded that a Kinslayer is cursed, effectively accusing him of being a kinslayer and claiming that the extremely old family ties are still considered "kin". I don't think anyone in story or out really believes this to be anything more than a final defiance.


The thing is, if you're going back that much to find out who's kin, then almost every noble family is technically "kin", since for centuries they would have predominantely married among each other. The only thing established by the book is that the Karstarks are the closest family to the Starks because of past ties between their families, but they're definitely different families. I think Karstark's argument that Robb was slaying his own kin was just a way to make himself sound more important and make his execution seem worse to Robb, or at the very least just as a way to remind him that the Karstarks had always been close to the Starks.

Like I said, its just a final defiance of Robb, one last fuck you from Rickard to the "Boy" who was about to take his head.
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Re: The red wedding *spoilers?*

PostPosted by Sansa Stark » Sat Dec 14, 2013 04:23

Notalent wrote:Like I said, its just a final defiance of Robb, one last fuck you from Rickard to the "Boy" who was about to take his head.


Yeah, and it's hardly a good fuck you at that, it's more the last desperate resort of someone who has nothing to lose by saying it.
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Re: The red wedding *spoilers?*

PostPosted by Syn » Sat Dec 14, 2013 21:03

Rickard Karstark went insane due to loss of child.

We saw pretty much the same thing with Catelyn.
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Re: The red wedding *spoilers?*

PostPosted by Notalent » Sat Dec 14, 2013 21:22

Syn wrote:Rickard Karstark went insane due to loss of child.

We saw pretty much the same thing with Catelyn.

Well...he did unleash a legitimately good Fuck you to Robb, when he declared whoever returned with the Kingslayers head could take his daughter as his wife and would be made a lord. That as much as his actual execution is what caused all the Karstark men to abandon Robb.
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Re: The red wedding *spoilers?*

PostPosted by Syn » Sat Dec 14, 2013 22:53

Notalent wrote:
Syn wrote:Rickard Karstark went insane due to loss of child.

We saw pretty much the same thing with Catelyn.

Well...he did unleash a legitimately good Fuck you to Robb, when he declared whoever returned with the Kingslayers head could take his daughter as his wife and would be made a lord. That as much as his actual execution is what caused all the Karstark men to abandon Robb.

Yes, he certainly did do that.

He was seeing red so much that he was willing to sell his own daughter to screw over Robb. It makes sense though, for Rickard and Catelyn both. Once they lost their children, they just didn't care anymore. About honor, about their house, their liege...nothing but revenge.

And now Alys is getting some from the Magnar of Thenn! I bet ol' Karstark is rolling around in his grave. :twisted:
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Re: The red wedding *spoilers?*

PostPosted by MBjarno » Sun Dec 15, 2013 00:49

By naming the one who marries Alys lord, doesn't he kind of fuck over Harrion? Isn't he the next in line (Or have I misunderstood something?)

Eddard and Torrhen dies.

Alys marries Sigorn of House Thenn, does this mean Harrion is removed from the succession line or that Alys and Sigorn is just the Lord and Lady as long as Harrion is a captive?
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Re: The red wedding *spoilers?*

PostPosted by Chrisjm89 » Sun Dec 15, 2013 01:44

MBjarno wrote:By naming the one who marries Alys lord, doesn't he kind of fuck over Harrion? Isn't he the next in line (Or have I misunderstood something?)

Eddard and Torrhen dies.

Alys marries Sigorn of House Thenn, does this mean Harrion is removed from the succession line or that Alys and Sigorn is just the Lord and Lady as long as Harrion is a captive?


No it just means that if Harrion dies, Alys and her children (who'll be Thenn's) will inherit Karhold.

I figure the Lordship Rickard was talking about was just a holdfast under Karhold. Currently Alys is still heiress to Karhold and the Thenn's will probably get the same deal if Harrion survives, land, holdfast and title along with it.
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Re: The red wedding *spoilers?*

PostPosted by Notalent » Sun Dec 15, 2013 03:11

The term Lord gets used fairly loosely in story, in this case its being used in the same way as when people talk about Bran becoming the lord of a small hold. Hes not appointing the man who marries Alys lord of Karhold, giving the guy a small strip of land, a small tower that is probably unoccupied, and his daughter. Also to marry the daughter of a Lord, you pretty much had to be a Lord yourself, otherwise you could not be expected to take care of her at the level she is accustomed to.
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Re: The red wedding *spoilers?*

PostPosted by Syn » Sun Dec 15, 2013 22:31

MBjarno wrote:By naming the one who marries Alys lord, doesn't he kind of fuck over Harrion? Isn't he the next in line (Or have I misunderstood something?)

Eddard and Torrhen dies.

Alys marries Sigorn of House Thenn, does this mean Harrion is removed from the succession line or that Alys and Sigorn is just the Lord and Lady as long as Harrion is a captive?

Jon Snow just married Alys to Sigorn so that her Uncle and cousins couldn't use her to gain the Lordship.

Their plan was for Cregan to marry her, and then have Harrion killed.
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Re: The red wedding *spoilers?*

PostPosted by MBjarno » Mon Dec 16, 2013 00:46

Yes thank you all I understand. I was just curious. Arnolf and Cregan tried to usurp Karhold. I get it :)
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