The red wedding *spoilers?*

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The red wedding *spoilers?*

PostPosted by Maartens » Mon Dec 02, 2013 09:27

Could the red wedding be a curse on Robb Stark for killing his kin, (kinslaying) or was it just the intrigue and deceitfulness of his vassals Frey and Bolton.
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Re: The red wedding *spoilers?*

PostPosted by EDAP » Mon Dec 02, 2013 12:09

Ignoring the one Karstark, Robb killed no members of his family. The Karstarks are so removed from the Stark Dynasty to no longer really count as family. The Red Wedding was simply a result of poor decision making by Robb, and potentially the Stannis curse.
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Re: The red wedding *spoilers?*

PostPosted by MBjarno » Mon Dec 02, 2013 16:34

I believe it is Stannis/Melisandre's curse. Considering the other two also died.

Though Robb was very much at fault for his own death, breaking promises and letting a man known as the Leech Lord from the Dreadfort(Seems so reliable) lead your troops.
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Re: The red wedding *spoilers?*

PostPosted by Maartens » Mon Dec 02, 2013 16:57

Ah good points, I just thought cus kinslaying in them culture was worse then death and even tywin thought to avoid such a thing.
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Re: The red wedding *spoilers?*

PostPosted by Blackfyre7 » Mon Dec 02, 2013 18:58

You all are ignoring the fact that Tywin Lannister had a hand in this. For one, before the killing began, the popular Westeros song titled "The Rains of Castamere" began to play. If you are unaware of what that is, it was a song created after Tywin led his father's troops to crush a rebellion by House Reyne. They rebelled because Tywin's father Tytos was considered a weak and craven ruler. So, you can think that he had intentions to kill off the stark line, but that isn't what matters here. Other from that, Frey's daughter whats-her-name was married to Edmure Tully, a letter was sent to Tywin that said something along the lines of "(Frey daughter name here) and Edmund Tully have married, and recieved two wolf cloaks for presents." The Red Wedding was simply Tywin and Walder plotting to kill Robb. Assuming Tywin didn't have a hand in it, I doubt the Red Wedding would've happened. So,

Blame Tywin!
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Re: The red wedding *spoilers?*

PostPosted by MBjarno » Mon Dec 02, 2013 20:51

Well we all know the Boltons, Freys and Lannisters were involved in the deaths, but the question is, if something ''bigger'' made the death occur, like the curse of Harrenhal. You could probably blame a number of people of the death of the different houses, but it still was considered the curse.
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Re: The red wedding *spoilers?*

PostPosted by Notalent » Mon Dec 02, 2013 22:26

The curse of bad decision making. He should have spared Karstark, not because it might be kinslaying but because he NEEDED Karstark, everyone in his war council told him so. Roose Bolton actually WAS the correct choice to lead his foot at the green fork, the problem was that Roose was maybe too smart, he saw the war was effectively lost and jumped ship while he could still get a sweetheart deal doing so.
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Re: The red wedding *spoilers?*

PostPosted by Ivir Baggins » Mon Dec 02, 2013 23:17

Notalent wrote:The curse of bad decision making. He should have spared Karstark, not because it might be kinslaying but because he NEEDED Karstark, everyone in his war council told him so. Roose Bolton actually WAS the correct choice to lead his foot at the green fork, the problem was that Roose was maybe too smart, he saw the war was effectively lost and jumped ship while he could still get a sweetheart deal doing so.


If Robb hadn't put Roose in command, who would have put in instead, why would this be bad, and what would Roose do instead?
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Re: The red wedding *spoilers?*

PostPosted by MBjarno » Tue Dec 03, 2013 02:22

Well there is a few good commanders (Which Roose Bolton also was known as)
He needed Rickard Karstark. He needed the Karstark forces, if he had not chopped off the head of Karstark his forces would still be significant, he could walk to the Freys who would then be more happy to offer troops under Robb's banner.

But the idea is, all these decisions were influenced by the lord of light, due to Stannis' curse.
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Re: The red wedding *spoilers?*

PostPosted by Notalent » Tue Dec 03, 2013 20:36

Ivir Baggins wrote:
Notalent wrote:The curse of bad decision making. He should have spared Karstark, not because it might be kinslaying but because he NEEDED Karstark, everyone in his war council told him so. Roose Bolton actually WAS the correct choice to lead his foot at the green fork, the problem was that Roose was maybe too smart, he saw the war was effectively lost and jumped ship while he could still get a sweetheart deal doing so.


If Robb hadn't put Roose in command, who would have put in instead, why would this be bad, and what would Roose do instead?

In the book there is actually a long discussion on who's going to be in charge of The Northern army on the eastern side of the Trident, Robb comes to the conclusion he needs a smart, patient man who won't fall into the traps Tywin will try and set for him. Roose is the ONLY option. Robbs other possible choices would have been Galbart Glover (we know near nothing about him), Rickard Karstark (Gee, hes a calm patient type...), and The Greatjon (Do I need to explain why this is horrible?).

Anyone else commanding that force probably falls for Tywins trap at the Battle of the Green Fork and gets his 15k foot wiped out and over half his Northern Lords imprisoned. Also I can't see anyone else being clever enough to make a deal with Vargo Hoat to capture Harrenhal. Roose was doing great for Robb...right until Robb's idiotic choices made it clear to him that the war was lost and the only option was to defect and get what he could out of the war.

Spoiler: show
Roose even tells Theon as much in Dance with Dragons, he was loyal right up until Robb lost Winterfell and the Freys.
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Re: The red wedding *spoilers?*

PostPosted by Mojokoro » Wed Dec 04, 2013 00:48

I think it's impressive (from a Lannister point-of-view. So not impressive, Robb. So. Not. Impressive.) that the Red Wedding went off without a hitch. Unlike some of the other assassinations in the books, the RW was a vast conspiracy aimed at coup d'état. There were so many people involved, and so many chances for things to go wrong at any point for the plotters. Ravens and runners can be intercepted. House Frey is loaded with half-wits and family squabbles that could have blown the lid. And once at The Twins, things could have been blown early, and the Northmen less drunk and more armed. That the conspiracy worked so well proves that Tywin Lannister's words weigh more than ten thousand Northern Swords, and that Ned Stark most definitely did not tell enough "Tywin Lannister is the boogeyman" stories to a young Robb.
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Re: The red wedding *spoilers?*

PostPosted by Notalent » Wed Dec 04, 2013 05:52

Mojokoro wrote:I think it's impressive (from a Lannister point-of-view. So not impressive, Robb. So. Not. Impressive.) that the Red Wedding went off without a hitch. Unlike some of the other assassinations in the books, the RW was a vast conspiracy aimed at coup d'état. There were so many people involved, and so many chances for things to go wrong at any point for the plotters. Ravens and runners can be intercepted. House Frey is loaded with half-wits and family squabbles that could have blown the lid. And once at The Twins, things could have been blown early, and the Northmen less drunk and more armed. That the conspiracy worked so well proves that Tywin Lannister's words weigh more than ten thousand Northern Swords, and that Ned Stark most definitely did not tell enough "Tywin Lannister is the boogeyman" stories to a young Robb.

Give the respect to Lame Lothar, who was apparently the architect of the Red Wedding and Black Walder Frey who carried out the butchery in the camps. Tywin actually had very little to do with the Red Wedding as he himself admits, the Freys messaged him and he simply agreed to their offer. This really wasn't Tywin's doing so much as Robb's, even then you could make an argument that if everything hadn't gone so disastrously wrong politically he could have pulled off his plans.

Minor things that people don't notice (none of these things happen in the show, because time constraints go!) :
Stevron Freys death took away Robbs best ally among House Frey. Stevron was the heir to the crossing and was unlike most of the other Freys a seemingly moral man...unfortunately for Robb he died at the Battle of Oxcross. Robb even remarks that if Stevron had survived he was sure he could have made amends with the Freys.

The Loss of the Frey Boys to Ramsey Bolton. Two of Walder Freys grand children are sent to Winterfell to be fostered by House Stark with Bran and Rickon, they were also effectively hostages forcing House Frey's loyalty. Alas they were lost to Ramsey Bolton in the burning of Winterfell, which took away the Starks hostages.

The withdrawl of the 400 Northmen force left to "guard" the crossing. When Robb left the Twins with the Frey forces in tow, he left behind 400 Northmen under the command of Helman Tallhart to "guard" the twins, he really left them there to keep an eye on Walder and prevent him from betraying. When Tywin tries to cross back over the Trident to get back to the Westerlands so he could stop the pillaging by Robb, Edmure recalls these 400 men along with his loyal Riverlords. Again when Robb learns that the 400 men are no longer stationed at the Twins, he realizes just how bad his situation is.

Had any of these things not happened, any ONE of these things, and Robb might have been able to keep the Frey's loyal or neutral. But nope, everything went upside down on him.
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Re: The red wedding *spoilers?*

PostPosted by Mojokoro » Wed Dec 04, 2013 07:03

Notalent wrote:Give the respect to Lame Lothar, who was apparently the architect of the Red Wedding and Black Walder Frey who carried out the butchery in the camps. Tywin actually had very little to do with the Red Wedding as he himself admits, the Freys messaged him and he simply agreed to their offer. This really wasn't Tywin's doing so much as Robb's, even then you could make an argument that if everything hadn't gone so disastrously wrong politically he could have pulled off his plans.


No doubt, when a Frey is effective he's deadly so. I didn't mean to imply Tywin designed the whole thing. But his seal of approval was enough for the Old Walder and his cronies to ignore the fact that they're smack in the middle of Stark country.

I wonder though, if Tywin had shown no interest in Frey conniving, would Frey & Sons have rebuffed Robb's overtures because they were still butt-hurt, carried on with the vengeance anyway, or just accepted the marriage and dealt with being the Tully's hick in-laws? Furthermore, what would Roose have done then?
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Re: The red wedding *spoilers?*

PostPosted by Notalent » Wed Dec 04, 2013 10:20

Mojokoro wrote:
Notalent wrote:Give the respect to Lame Lothar, who was apparently the architect of the Red Wedding and Black Walder Frey who carried out the butchery in the camps. Tywin actually had very little to do with the Red Wedding as he himself admits, the Freys messaged him and he simply agreed to their offer. This really wasn't Tywin's doing so much as Robb's, even then you could make an argument that if everything hadn't gone so disastrously wrong politically he could have pulled off his plans.


No doubt, when a Frey is effective he's deadly so. I didn't mean to imply Tywin designed the whole thing. But his seal of approval was enough for the Old Walder and his cronies to ignore the fact that they're smack in the middle of Stark country.

I wonder though, if Tywin had shown no interest in Frey conniving, would Frey & Sons have rebuffed Robb's overtures because they were still butt-hurt, carried on with the vengeance anyway, or just accepted the marriage and dealt with being the Tully's hick in-laws? Furthermore, what would Roose have done then?

I'm genuinely not sure what the Frey's would have done, they have some weird priorities that kinda make it impossible to predict their actions.

As for Roose...Roose would do what Roose always does, find the best solution for Roose. My suspicion is that he would settle into a holding pattern and hold onto Harrenhal waiting to see how things went, if Robb had persuaded the Frey's back to his side, he'd probably wait and see if Robb was able to retake the North from the Iron Islanders, if Robb failed or took too many losses he'd stall until he could find a way to defect, if Robb succeeded he'd continue on being a good general for Robb, although that could get difficult considering his bastards status in the book (He was supposed to be executed for his crimes at Hornwood).
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Re: The red wedding *spoilers?*

PostPosted by MBjarno » Wed Dec 04, 2013 15:58

Roose might have believed in Robb if he had managed to hold the Freys. But alas, Robb fucked over the majority of his army with breaking a promise to the Freys as well as having taken the head of Rickard Karstark. Alone those two houses could field roughly 6000 men. That is a significant force.

Robb fucked over himself, the curse might be part of it, but still Robb was not politically smart. Just like his father.
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Re: The red wedding *spoilers?*

PostPosted by Syn » Wed Dec 04, 2013 17:43

Give the respect to Lame Lothar

Leave it to the Frey with some First Man blood in him.

I don't believe the weasel half benefits him much. :lol:
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Re: The red wedding *spoilers?*

PostPosted by Sansa Stark » Thu Dec 12, 2013 13:01

I can't remember Robb killing any members of his family, are we reading the same book/watching the same show? :shock: If you're talking about the Karstarks, the books repeatedly mention that they're distant relatives by this point, they even have different last names, so it would be weird if they counted as Robb's "kin". Go far back enough and most Northmen are related to each other, the Karstark just happen to be the closest family to the Starks.

I'm not sure if it would count as slaying your kin if you were punishing them for a crime. I think it's like guest right, you forfeit that protection if you commit a crime. Otherwise, if your relatives were psychos and kept undermining your authority or doing things that were blatantly illegal you wouldn't be able to punish them.

If there were any divine forces involved with the Red Wedding, I feel like it was Melisandre's spell. Mostly, however, I think it's just Tywin's excellent manipulation skills.
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Re: The red wedding *spoilers?*

PostPosted by Notalent » Fri Dec 13, 2013 01:49

Sansa Stark wrote:I can't remember Robb killing any members of his family, are we reading the same book/watching the same show? :shock: If you're talking about the Karstarks, the books repeatedly mention that they're distant relatives by this point, they even have different last names, so it would be weird if they counted as Robb's "kin". Go far back enough and most Northmen are related to each other, the Karstark just happen to be the closest family to the Starks.

I'm not sure if it would count as slaying your kin if you were punishing them for a crime. I think it's like guest right, you forfeit that protection if you commit a crime. Otherwise, if your relatives were psychos and kept undermining your authority or doing things that were blatantly illegal you wouldn't be able to punish them.

If there were any divine forces involved with the Red Wedding, I feel like it was Melisandre's spell. Mostly, however, I think it's just Tywin's excellent manipulation skills.

Rickard Karstark tells Robb before hes beheaded that a Kinslayer is cursed, effectively accusing him of being a kinslayer and claiming that the extremely old family ties are still considered "kin". I don't think anyone in story or out really believes this to be anything more than a final defiance.
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Re: The red wedding *spoilers?*

PostPosted by Chrisjm89 » Fri Dec 13, 2013 02:56

Notalent wrote:
Sansa Stark wrote:I can't remember Robb killing any members of his family, are we reading the same book/watching the same show? :shock: If you're talking about the Karstarks, the books repeatedly mention that they're distant relatives by this point, they even have different last names, so it would be weird if they counted as Robb's "kin". Go far back enough and most Northmen are related to each other, the Karstark just happen to be the closest family to the Starks.

I'm not sure if it would count as slaying your kin if you were punishing them for a crime. I think it's like guest right, you forfeit that protection if you commit a crime. Otherwise, if your relatives were psychos and kept undermining your authority or doing things that were blatantly illegal you wouldn't be able to punish them.

If there were any divine forces involved with the Red Wedding, I feel like it was Melisandre's spell. Mostly, however, I think it's just Tywin's excellent manipulation skills.

Rickard Karstark tells Robb before hes beheaded that a Kinslayer is cursed, effectively accusing him of being a kinslayer and claiming that the extremely old family ties are still considered "kin". I don't think anyone in story or out really believes this to be anything more than a final defiance.


Yeah, their 'family' ties are from one thousands years ago. Obviously there would have been marriages in between then but unless it's a relatively recent, no kin-slaying. Unless Ned's mother was a Karstark (the one who's mother was a Flint) making her Rickard Karstark's aunt or grand-aunt or perhaps even older sister. Then again that 'should' have been mentioned, if that were the case.
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Re: The red wedding *spoilers?*

PostPosted by Sansa Stark » Fri Dec 13, 2013 19:26

Notalent wrote:
Sansa Stark wrote:I can't remember Robb killing any members of his family, are we reading the same book/watching the same show? :shock: If you're talking about the Karstarks, the books repeatedly mention that they're distant relatives by this point, they even have different last names, so it would be weird if they counted as Robb's "kin". Go far back enough and most Northmen are related to each other, the Karstark just happen to be the closest family to the Starks.

I'm not sure if it would count as slaying your kin if you were punishing them for a crime. I think it's like guest right, you forfeit that protection if you commit a crime. Otherwise, if your relatives were psychos and kept undermining your authority or doing things that were blatantly illegal you wouldn't be able to punish them.

If there were any divine forces involved with the Red Wedding, I feel like it was Melisandre's spell. Mostly, however, I think it's just Tywin's excellent manipulation skills.

Rickard Karstark tells Robb before hes beheaded that a Kinslayer is cursed, effectively accusing him of being a kinslayer and claiming that the extremely old family ties are still considered "kin". I don't think anyone in story or out really believes this to be anything more than a final defiance.


The thing is, if you're going back that much to find out who's kin, then almost every noble family is technically "kin", since for centuries they would have predominantely married among each other. The only thing established by the book is that the Karstarks are the closest family to the Starks because of past ties between their families, but they're definitely different families. I think Karstark's argument that Robb was slaying his own kin was just a way to make himself sound more important and make his execution seem worse to Robb, or at the very least just as a way to remind him that the Karstarks had always been close to the Starks.
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