The Citadel

Hi, all,
Forgive me if this is going to be basic and/or a stupid question - I'm somewhat new to CK2, and this mod is one of the reasons I even bought it in the first place.

Anyway, I'm using 0.1.1, playing the Crowned Stag scenario as House Dondarrion. I was having what I thought was a pretty successful game - after one generation of lords, I was able to conquer all the territory marked as the de jure Dornish Marches. I was all excited to claim the title of High Lord of the Dornish Marches, but the option wasn't there - some Swann descendent holding a county in a completely different High Lordship held the title, and when I tried to usurp it, the game told me I couldn't usurp the title from someone in the same realm unless I had a claim.

In vanilla CK2, there are usually territorial requirements for making a claim to a title higher than your own - i.e., "hold 2 of 4 counties" or some such. In this case, I hold all 4 counties associated with the high lordship and still apparently don't have a claim. My tendency is to assume that the only way I *can* make a claim on that title is through marriage/succession, but that's going to take decades of game time to manufacture, and I'm already at my character's demesne limit. Since I'm still just a lord, offering landed titles to anyone means I lose that county, but I can't claim any more territory without breaking my demesne limit. Which means I'd be kind of treading water until I was able to get in the line of succession for the aforementioned high lordship.

Needless to say, it's a little frustrating to have done so well in conquering everything and then just be stuck and seemingly unable to make a claim for high lordship of territory I fully own and occupy. But I'm also aware that I'm kind of a n00b, and that there may have been something I missed or did wrong to make this situation happen.

So, I guess my questions are: 1) Is there any way for me to claim that High Lordship without breeding into it? 2) Was there something I should have done along the way to keep from painting myself into a corner like this? 3) If there is no way for me to make that claim, what am I supposed to do from here on out?

Sorry for the essay. Any help much appreciated.

It's normal that you can't usurp an existing title in the same realm, that's in vanilla as well. But you should have access to plots like "Acquire Duchy of X" or "See Duchy of X granted to a different ruler" that allow you to petition your liege or king for the title, or go to war over it if they refuse.

Yeah, I see "Demand Duchy from Liege" under Decisions in the Intrigue pane, but it's not selectable, and when I mouse-over the question mark, it tells me that's because

"Title Rank is "Lord
Desired by "Lady Leonette of Blackhaven
Can be given away
Lord Paramount Olymer I's rank is lower than King"

Olymer is the Lord Paramount of the Stormlands, and Robert sits on the Iron Throne.

There are no Ambitions/Plots listed like the ones you describe.

I've looked under the Diplomacy pane for both the Lord Paramount and for King Robert, and I don't see any options other than to declare war for independence, which would be kind of ludicrous given my position in the game right now.

So confused.

Anyone able to help me understand what's going on, here? Is it just impossible, the way the tiers are set up, to rise from Lord to High Lord? Since the game won't tell me what, exactly, I'd need to lay a claim to a High Lordship, and since it's obviously not a question of territory (I control all the counties in the de jure High Lordship), is there some other criteria I'm not fulfilling?

Any help much appreciated.

if that high lordship doesn't own any other counties, then do the following (screenshots is just as an example of high lordship that is empty):
1) select county of that duchy http://clip2net.com/s/22Huc
2) view it's baronies
3) check De Jure http://clip2net.com/s/22HuI
4) click the High Lordship that is de jure claims selected county (that one, you want) http://clip2net.com/s/22Hv9
5) if you uncheck De Jure and you'll see empty county list than you are on a right way http://clip2net.com/s/22HvR //if not than you'll have to either get a claim on high lordship, or make that particular high lordship empty
6) create button will be available, just click it and you are done

Thanks for this detailed response. I actually tried the steps you outlined, and the game tells me that I need to have a claim. I guess my question is, what are the requirements for having a claim on a High Lordship? Are they different from claiming a dukedom in vanilla CK 2? I ask because I control all four territories in the High Lordship, and can neither petition my liege (Lord Paramount of the Stormlands) for a claim, nor usurp the High Lordship. So, what's the requirement that I'm missing? Is there anywhere in the game that would tell me this?

I actually started a second game on the off chance that something I did in the course of my first game "broke" the system. This time, I declared independence from the High Lord of the Dornish Marches, defeated them and conquered all territories in the High Lordship, and STILL wasn't able to claim the title.

Obviously, I'm missing something, here, but I can't for the life of me figure out what it is.

I'd say you either need to wipe out the current holders last county, OR fabricate a claim on the High Lordship. Annoying he has land elsewhere, that seems to be what's causing the issue.

Comradebot, you hit the nail on the head. Tried again last night and, in the midst of my battle for the last county in the de jure Dornish Marches (Nightsong), I was informed by my Master of Laws - who I'd forgotten I'd left in Nightsong after fabricating a claim to that particular piece of land - that he'd fabricated a claim on the High Lordship. 160 gold and a couple of sieges later, I was finally able to usurp the title and make Beric Dondarrion the High Lord of the Dornish Marches. Huzzah.

Anyway, I'm guessing it's probably what you mentioned, that the High Lord owned some county somewhere else, and that screwed me out of just making a de jure claim once I controlled all the territory in the Dornish Marches. So, ultimately, not a bug or anything, but it would be damn nice if the game would tell me *why* I'm not able to make that claim rather than just saying, "Sorry, you don't have a claim."