The Citadel

so I'm playing the crowned stag scenario as the starks and I just saw that ramsay snow is a genius. can someone explain that reasoning to me? he didn't strike me as a genius when i read dance

charger wrote:so I'm playing the crowned stag scenario as the starks and I just saw that ramsay snow is a genius. can someone explain that reasoning to me? he didn't strike me as a genius when i read dance

Well he did manage to sack Winterfell. Only other person I can think of doing that is Theon, but he had the added benefit of growing up there and knowing it. Ramsay took advantage of a situation, and really came out on top so far in the story. So he's definitely not an idiot.

And Aegon the Conqueror conquered the entire Seven Kingdoms and wasn't even Quick. ;D

I think Roose Bolton is more the genius, and Ramsay Snow is quick at best.

Born a bastard, he became lord due to his wits mostly... and despite being a sick individual.

He always seen to realize what tools he can use, and use them effectively.
- He managed to befriend his older step brother and kill him.
- He used his friend reek to switch places and avoid death.
- He turned from a captor in winterfel to its conqueror, and turned Theon form a captor to a pet.
- He took winterfel and broke the northern forces with minimal casualties.
- He used theon to take moat calin with no causalities.
ect...

I think he merits the trait genius...
Dont forget Aegon had not 1 but 3 dragons... and with all due respect... 3 dragons tipped the scales to his favor quite a bit.

I think we should make a special "evil" version of the genius trait to reflect people like Ramsay or Roose - maybe the brain with red instead of green heart, with slightly different stats. I don't think what they do is because they're genius', I think they do so well because people are a lot more trusting in the "good" within individuals and they have no qualms with exploiting that.

For instance, in practice, the guest right is a rediculous idea - give an arch rival a bit of bread when he's under your roof and you're not allowed to kill him. It's rediculous, yet everyone in Westeros follows it, except for those choice few.

Same with most of the stuff on that list. What Ramsay did wasn't really genius, it's just that people in Westeros simply don't do that sort of thing, it's dishonourable, and Westeros puts a lot of weight to honour! Anyone could probably think of them, but there aren't many people that would have the gall to actually do them. He's smarter than your average sadist, true, but I don't think he merits genius personally:

- He managed to befriend his older step brother and kill him - He's evil, nothing genius about murder .
- He used his friend reek to switch places and avoid death. - Survivalism - He doesn't value Reek's life, if it's a choice between Reek and Him, it's gonna be Reek!
- He turned from a captor in winterfel to its conqueror, and turned Theon form a captor to a pet. - He told Theon he could bring him men then stormed Winterfell when Theon opened the gates for him, just opportunism imho.
- He took winterfel and broke the northern forces with minimal casualties. - First part is covered above, second part, I assume you mean when he attacked Ser Rodrik? Where he marched his men up to Rodrik and said he'd help, then when Rodrik went to shake his hand, cut it off then took the Northerners unawares, it's just Sadism! Anyone could think it, but it takes a special kind of evil in a man to pull it off .
- He used theon to take moat calin with no causalities. - Anyone would have done the same in his situation, it's standard procedure to try and talk peace terms before seiging a castle. The Ironborn probably always would have surrendered, the fact that Ramsay didn't hold his end of the deal is just Sadism again!

I think a combination of the traits Arbitrary, Cruel, Wroth and Quick probably cover all the points you made. That's just my view though, I don't disagree that he's definitely opportunist, but I personally do not perceive it as genius, just a special kind of evil.

i agree with exactly what Stiener said. genus implies someone like tyrion, littlefinger, maybe even doran. ramsay is an opportunistic sadist, maybe a quick opportunistic sadist, but definitely not a genius

Stiener wrote:I think we should make a special "evil" version of the genius trait to reflect people like Ramsay or Roose - maybe the brain with red instead of green heart, with slightly different stats. I don't think what they do is because they're genius', I think they do so well because people are a lot more trusting in the "good" within individuals and they have no qualms with exploiting that.

I can't even begin to imagine how difficult it would be to quantify good vs evil in this game, let alone figure out how to assign these as congenital traits. I'd prefer if the lord's actions spoke for their morality, and not their traits.

Yeah, you're definitely right. 'Evil' wouldn't work, it's not really what I meant, but I can't think of the specific word I mean, it's on the tip of my tongue!

On another matter, it's something that i've been considering for a while: Combined Traits. Which could better represent characters like this. For instance, if a character has Cruel, Wroth, Arbitrary and Quick (or 3/4, etc. and an event could be triggered on an action, like attempting assassination (generally affected by play style where possible)) we could have a selection of "Master Personality Trait" - in this case, maybe Amoral - that characters could aspire to achieve. Along the lines of "The Whole is more than the sum of it's parts." kind of thing, alone the traits may be menial, but if you have them all together you have a chance to gain a trait which gives balanced, but pretty skewed stats.

Just an idea i've been throwing around, and would be pretty hard to balance along with the boosts from education traits, but it would definitely add a new layer to trying to create your character.

Roose is a Genius, Tyrion is a Genius, Littlefinger, Doran, all Geniuses. They show they have reached an intellectual level untouched by their peers. Ramsay Snow is a Brute, a Cold, Sadistic, Calculating brute, but a Brute nonetheless. Everytime he tried one of his pawney schemes, Roose would interfere and pull off something even greater. So my vote goes to Ramsay being Quick or lower. With a second level of Cruel, being Sadist. Quick and Sadistical sums him up nicely. He does think good on the fly, but a masterful plot is out of his grasp. Cersei is another character I consider Quick, but far from a Genius. She knows how to take advantage of a situation.

speaking of cersei, how is she a scholar or is that something that the game just picked up and i messed?

Yeah sometimes the game will just add traits if it decides there are not enough.

But back to the Boltons, none of the lot is quick or a genius. They are cruel calculating backstabbers. Therefore traits: cruel, impaler, education intrigue.
Roose knows when the tide is turning, but that doesn't make him quick, just an opportunist, while Ramsay doesn't care about the consequences he just sees something he likes and dares people to stop him.

You can't turn off random traits because :paradox:. I had a hunchback Rhaegar once.

Gotta agree here, Ramsay pulled off some fantastic stunts and he's definitely bright. However, Roose is clearly a genius - he achieves his ends very subtley but achieves them well. He warns Ramsay several times about 'how his behavior will go over, can't he figure that much out?'

Ramsay is the kind of smart that lets him set a goal, and achieve that goal at the expense of the larger picture. The larger picture is simply too complicated for Ramsay to achieve without intervention. Some of his personal compulsions do get in his way, but do not appear to affect his ability to conceive complicated multi-pronged strategies.

Roose is the kind of smart that lets him set an overarching goal, and the pieces appear to fall into place by themselves through the actions of others. And he is still able to bail water for Ramsay and help Ramsay achieve his own goals, while still managing to pull together his larger picture.

There is a big difference between the level of intelligence with these two. One people can be impressed by, the other people can be both impressed and mystified by... The genius is the one who makes it seem easy and is able to help others while helping himself, able to allow others to do the work for him, while he gets the reward - and all of this on a grand "Game of Thrones" scale.

Dark genius

I agree with most people here. Ramsay is smart (thus deserving the quick trait) but I think genius is a stretch. He is too impulse-driven and has serious trouble placing his long term plans above of his urges and instincts. (like what he did with his first wife, which was incredibly dangerous to House Bolton)
Roose on the other hand...I could easily see him a genius. A twisted genius but a genius.

Now on what Stiener said. Indeed just "Evil" would be too much black and white. Plus evil doesn't means competent. Amory Lorch is evil and an imbecile.
Perhaps Psychopath? I don't like using psychological terms though so maybe..."Cold" or something similar.

Is the word you are looking for a Socio-Path
Not bound by the soical norms so can act in a way the is both cold calcualting and ruthless, but not irrational or just for the fun of it that a Psycho-path may be.
Just as Sadists are those who derive pleasure from their cruelty and that would be their sole motivation. Joffery is more a Sadist.

If you want to avoid psychological terms, how about "morally flexible"

Also why do you think the guest right is ridiculous?
It is well ground from many real world cultures

What about Opportunist? or is that already an existing trait?

Genius seems about right to me .

warpwhistle wrote:Genius seems about right to me .

Hahaha how the hell did he get on the iron throne lol